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Other => General Topics => Topic started by: teknojnky on May 19, 2005, 05:25:30 PM

Title: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: teknojnky on May 19, 2005, 05:25:30 PM
I must say, that after hearing such great things about avast, that I am extremely disappointed to find out that the program will not work correct if norton antivirus/systemworks is installed.

Heck just searching for 'norton' returns 42 *pages* of results.

Many of the posts are full of FUD recommending complete uninstallation of NAV in order to get avast to work correctly... however its amazing that NAV works correctly even if avast is installed but simply disabled.

I think its unacceptable to require 'uninstallation' of a competing product when simply disabling it should be sufficient. I am not going to go thru the hassle of trying to uninstall a perfectly working nav (which is part of my systemworks) just to (fully) try out avast.

So, consider this a lost customer post, because I refuse to support software which does not play nice with other software.

And please, don't repeat the countless posts about multiple AV conflicting, yes I know there may be conflicts if both are ACTIVE at the same time, however disabling one should sufficient.

If you can't design it to work correctly with NAV (or any other AV) installed but disabled, I guess thats too bad for your company and too bad for your lost potential customers.
 
:(
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: DavidR on May 19, 2005, 05:32:56 PM
As you have seen this forums is littered with the debris of norton remaining even after it was supposedly removed.

Quote
So, consider this a lost customer post, because I refuse to support software which does not play nice with other software.

That is your choice and your loss in my opinion and many on these forums who have switched from nroton.Then you should ditch norton as there are numerous programs that it conflicts with.
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Hopismum on May 19, 2005, 05:44:45 PM
tossing in a couple of cents  :)

It would be nice if Norton would make Systemworks so that you could choose which parts of it you want installed.    That way you caould install all EXCEPT the virus scanner part of it and would be able to use Avast with it.   

It is possible..     for instance a program made by Vcom called Fixit Utilities.     You do NOT have to just install the entire thing..   you can choose which parts of it you DO want installed.    Ive used it for several years now and like it...  when installing it I do not allow it to install the virus scanner part of it.     So...  no conflicts.

David..      I do not use, and have not had my hands on a system with Systemworks installed on it.     Is it not even possible to disable the virus scanner?      And,    if it is possible does it still conflict with avast?
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: teknojnky on May 19, 2005, 05:53:48 PM
As you have seen this forums is littered with the debris of norton remaining even after it was supposedly removed.

Yes, I will surely admit that norton/symantec has issues with uninstallation and what not.. that however does not excuse the issue of not making avast compatible with an existing NAV (or any other problematic program) in the first place.

Quote
That is your choice and your loss in my opinion and many on these forums who have switched from nroton.Then you should ditch norton as there are numerous programs that it conflicts with.

I've been using norton products since the dos days, and while there have certainly been various issues with them at differrent points, my current system works perfectly and I haven't seen any conflicts with it for years.

Further, while I am quite technically oriented and fully capable of exterminating norton from my system, my issue is more a philosphical one.

Your software refuses to play nice.

@ Connie, yes you can disable the AV portion via the systemworks/antivirus options. This should be sufficient to enable use of any other AV products.

Imagine the problems if various defrag or anti spyware programs would not work if they detected competing programs?!!?
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: DavidR on May 19, 2005, 05:55:06 PM
Quote
David..      I do not use, and have not had my hands on a system with Systemworks installed on it.     Is it not even possible to disable the virus scanner?      And,    if it is possible does it still conflict with avast?
I don't use it either, and my only knowledge of it is here on the forums and as far as I can recollect there is no individual component uninstall but I believe you can choose not to install a component on the custom install.

Unfortunately it's not the installation which could use some flexibility as virtually everyone is going to go for the default install, which will have all components installed. What needs to be flexible is the uninstall so individual components can be uninstalled.

So may be possible to uninstall Norton Systemworks and do a custom install excluding the AV component. This however, is not from first hand experience.

None of this is likely to suit 'teknojnky.'
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Hopismum on May 19, 2005, 05:58:00 PM
teknojnky -   my Isp -  cox cable..   has new software for its high speed customers.   It includes a firewall, virus scanner, popupblocker, spywareblocker,  etc.     The instructions for installing their software tell you specifically to UNINSTALL  all of the aforementioned you already have on your system.     This INCLUDES the spywaresoftware.     SOOOOO  I do not need to imagine that scenario.    It already  (stupidly imho exists)     

also..   avast is not the only virus software out here that "conflicts" with other virus software on the system.     Its well known there will be compatibility issues if you have TWO virus programs installed on your system.     You DID make note of your awareness of this in your first message   :) :) :)       So your last one just confused me  :)     

David   *nods*   agree with you last comment   :)
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: RejZoR on May 19, 2005, 06:02:30 PM
Lets clear something up...

First of all,AVs don't play nice with eachother,so don't expect that NAV and avast! will work ok together.
Second,you should decide which one to use. NAV or avast!.
SystemWorks package clearly allows separate installation of components including NAV. Other parts of package are not affected.
So don't blame avast! if Symantec product doesn't work with it.
It's obvious that you'll have to remove one or another.
AVs were never meant to run with others,unless if they were build from ground up with dual engine scanning in mind (like F-Secure does or AVK with 2 simultaneous scan engines in one product)
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Hopismum on May 19, 2005, 06:05:21 PM

Unfortunately it's not the installation which could use some flexibility as virtually everyone is going to go for the default install, which will have all components installed. What needs to be flexible is the uninstall so individual components can be uninstalled.
 

Exactly..      am able to do so with Fixit and have done so over time after being comfortable with the program and knowing what parts of it I do not need/want.     
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Hopismum on May 19, 2005, 06:06:19 PM
RejZor       thank you     ;) :)
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: teknojnky on May 19, 2005, 06:16:46 PM
In most cases, simply disabling said software is sufficient to installing and using alternative products.

I feel I should further qualify my original post and responses.

I initially came across avast when looking for x64 compatible AV, a friend recommended it to me and had mentioned he had used it for a year or more and like it alot.

Since avast is one of the few, if not only, currently available x64 compatible AV products, I decided to try it out on my new system.

After using it a few weeks, I decided to try it out on my older system which has a perfectly working systemworks 2002. A few of the reasons I wanted to do this is because the update subscription would be expiring again soon and I wanted a more current AV product and I don't honestly use systemworks often enough to justify paying 70-100 for a complete new version or somewhat less for just NAV itself.

So, this leaves me in the unenviable position of having to uninstall/exterminate NAV from my systemworks and/or uninstalling the entire systemworks package simply to use Avast.

If at some point I wanted to revert to NAV/systemworks, I would then have to go thru yet more hassle to reinstall and reupdate thru several years worth of updates, or alternatively to do a complete backup/restore as appropriate.

All of which would be completely unnecessary if avast (and maybe other products, I don't know) would be compatible or satisfied with NAV being disabled instead of completely uninstalled.

And while I understand that my thread will not automagically make avast more compatible for me, I do hope to raise the concern and hope the developers take the (obviously common) situation of customers having both NAV and avast installed at the same time into account for future releases.

In this age of 'modern' software, there really is no excuse for programs walking over each other in this manner.
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: RejZoR on May 19, 2005, 06:31:21 PM
Now, as a software expert i disagree with you.
AVs are very delicate stuff. They are not just programs. They are programs that work on low level (driver level). So it's very hard to make them NOT to walk over eachother.
Some do work ok with others (like avast! and NOD32,just one or another needs to have disabled HTTP scanner),but NAV has problems with nearly all antiviruses on market. Thats because Symantec programmers decided to integrate its core components deep into windows,thus not allowing other programs(AVs) to operate correctly. Lets make long story short...
It's not avast!'s fault that doesn't work with NAV,but NAV's fault.
Get rid of one or another. Every AV recommends(at install point) to remove all currently installed AVs before installing them.
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: kamulko on May 19, 2005, 07:40:20 PM
Ok, I'm NOT a programmer but I had Systemworks (without NAV) installed in 2003, 2004, 2005. I have not interest in say lies: Norton suite is simply TOO INVASIVE, like a cancer. It make extremely difficult to make "scannerizable" many part of his (and others)components and files. Every time I have uninstalled it after a lot of problems. Is not only my personal experience. Like I said a couple of time in other parts of the forum, I work in a place with over 4500 machines. Well, the "official" Av is XXXXXXX but many persons use to install also their preferred AV. Imagine: 4500 users and how many preferences in AV softwares!!!  Well, the truth is this: only the "NAV lovers" keep it (without other AVs) installed. We are a University. We also have an Hospital were I work in a office. Ok, we have our Institute of Computer Sciences and Informatics: our technicals and engineers confirm it. NAV is not perfectly compatible with the most of other AV software. Now you can say wat you want... but have you the same knowledge of over
200 developing engineers and thousands and thousands experienced students? (some parts were deleted: privacy )
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Lisandro on May 19, 2005, 07:55:01 PM
I do hope to raise the concern and hope the developers take the (obviously common) situation of customers having both NAV and avast installed at the same time into account for future releases.
Systemworks except NAV is perfectly compatible with avast.
NAV is incompatible with ANY OTHER antivirus. I give up on NAV...
avast! is compatible with other non-resident scanners (and in some cases, to experienced users, to AVG resident). Never with NAV.
But, on contrary, I'll say and ask that avast! never become 'compatible' with NAV. It's worthless. NAV is a resource hog and, like Kamulko said, TOO INVASIVE. Left behind tons of files and registry keys messing all Windows installations. I have to remove NAV from a lot of computers. I never regret. Tomorrow, I'll have more four computers of a friend of mine converted to avast!  ;)
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: igor on May 19, 2005, 08:03:05 PM
I think its unacceptable to require 'uninstallation' of a competing product when simply disabling it should be sufficient.

So, consider this a lost customer post, because I refuse to support software which does not play nice with other software.

Sorry, teknojnky, but you are wrong. This has really nothing to do with "competing products". As Rejzor said, antivirus software are low level programs - and the programs conflict with each other beause of  the principle they are based on. So, having 2 AV programs installed together is calling for troubles. Even though you may think disabling is enough, it is not. It may work for a while, for a particular configuration and settings, but it is likely to cause troubles sooner or later - freeze your computer, cause bluescreens (with the obvious consequences, such as corrupting the data on your disk, loosing the unsaved work, etc.)
We simply don't want to take that risk. It's better to show a warning message and disable certain parts of avast! than explain the user why he cannot boot the computer anymore (i.e. "why avast! completely crashes his OS" - because that's what they'd think).

Sometimes, "false positives" might occur, such as when some Symantec products is announced as NAV even though it's not. We would like to avoid that, of course, but the presence of NAV (or other AV software) is not so easy to detect - we look for specific drivers, but sometimes the company uses a driver with the same name in different products...  or, they don't remove the drivers even though they don't use them anymore, etc. :-\
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Lisandro on May 19, 2005, 08:14:33 PM
Sometimes, "false positives" might occur, such as when some Symantec products is announced as NAV even though it's not. We would like to avoid that, of course, but the presence of NAV (or other AV software) is not so easy to detect - we look for specific drivers, but sometimes the company uses a driver with the same name in different products...  or, they don't remove the drivers even though they don't use them anymore, etc. :-\
Igor, just to confirm. For me, avast! is perfectly compatible (withour 'false positive' detection of NAV) with both Norton Systemworks 2004 and 2005.
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Spyros on May 19, 2005, 08:34:35 PM
If you can't design it to work correctly with NAV (or any other AV) installed but disabled, I guess thats too bad for your company and too bad for your lost potential customers.

Since avast! has no serious problems with the presence or remains of other AV's (except of NAV) I, as an x-costumer of NAV, would refraise your sentence to this:
" Dear Norton, If you can't design it to work correctly with avast! (or any other AV) installed but disabled, I guess thats too bad for your company and too bad for your lost potential customers."
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: teknojnky on May 19, 2005, 08:54:14 PM
Here is my point, and I will try to make it as succint as possible:

If all NAV files and services are disabled from start up, then as far as any other virus scanner is concerned, resident or not, NAV should have no effect on them.

The files may be there, but are not loaded.. then how could it possibly conflict unless there is something within the other program which is poorly programmed that somehow still conflicts with inactive files?!?!?

Now, I would agree completely that one should not be trying to actively use multiple virus scanners simultaniously... but there is no excuse for inactive files to be affecting active programs.

And besides, Windows has long had the ability to support multiple drivers and programs running concurrently anyway (provided they are programmed correctly)... this is a core basis of a modern pre-emptively multitasking operating system such as xp/2k/x64. So in theory, multiple virus, spyware, defrag, etc programs should ALL work fine together... even simultaniously because the OS is supposed to keep them separated (whether or not the OS does is an entirely different arguement).

@ Spyros, touche. However, as a current NAV customer, which doesn't appear to have any issues with avast being installed, only avast having issues with NAV, it appears to me to be a problem with avast.


:)

Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: RejZoR on May 19, 2005, 09:06:29 PM
No offense,but you really don't understand.
It's not about only services and processes. Antiviruses work on a low driver level. So even if it's (visually) fully disabled,it's parts are always "online" low below system visual shell (Explorer).
And this is the exact reason why avast! doesn't want to work with NAV in any case.
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Lisandro on May 19, 2005, 09:08:17 PM
If all NAV files and services are disabled from start up, then as far as any other virus scanner is concerned, resident or not, NAV should have no effect on them. The files may be there, but are not loaded.. then how could it possibly conflict unless there is something within the other program which is poorly programmed that somehow still conflicts with inactive files?!?!?

Sorry to say but this is not truth.
Check, for instance, these Windows Registry keys in your system?

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\VirtualDeviceDrivers\\VDD
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Control\VirtualDeviceDrivers\\VDD
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet002\Control\VirtualDeviceDrivers\\VDD
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet003\Control\VirtualDeviceDrivers\\VDD
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet004\Control\VirtualDeviceDrivers\\VDD

You'll have problems with any, but any, 16bit file executable lauched, you'll have problems with DOS applications under XP.
Definitively, I worked with NAV a lot of time and have to uninstall it from lots of computers. I'm absolutely sure about what I'm posting.
By the way, avast is not poorly programmed. In fact, it's one of the best antivirus round  8)
Now, I would agree completely that one should not be trying to actively use multiple virus scanners simultaniously... but there is no excuse for inactive files to be affecting active programs.

And besides, Windows has long had the ability to support multiple drivers and programs running concurrently anyway (provided they are programmed correctly)... this is a core basis of a modern pre-emptively multitasking operating system such as xp/2k/x64. So in theory, multiple virus, spyware, defrag, etc programs should ALL work fine together... even simultaniously because the OS is supposed to keep them separated (whether or not the OS does is an entirely different arguement).
Again, this is not true for drivers at the same programming level, in this case, low programming level and access to disk. Only in theory, and theory is not the practice in computer land  ;D
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: igor on May 19, 2005, 09:24:04 PM
If all NAV files and services are disabled from start up, then as far as any other virus scanner is concerned, resident or not, NAV should have no effect on them.

First, the question is how are they disabled. For example, AVG was (is?) known to load the drivers even if you disable the resident shield from its user interface.

The files may be there, but are not loaded.. then how could it possibly conflict unless there is something within the other program which is poorly programmed that somehow still conflicts with inactive files?!?!?

OK, let's say they are not loaded. But - the corresponding records exist. It may simply mean that avast! is started a few milliseconds earlier than NAV - and Norton executable will load the drivers a few clockticks later, resulting in a system crash. That's the way it is. (Norton doesn't have any checks for avast!, of course, so it would attempt to load the drivers).

Quote
And besides, Windows has long had the ability to support multiple drivers and programs running concurrently anyway (provided they are programmed correctly)... this is a core basis of a modern pre-emptively multitasking operating system such as xp/2k/x64. So in theory, multiple virus, spyware, defrag, etc programs should ALL work fine together... even simultaniously because the OS is supposed to keep them separated (whether or not the OS does is an entirely different arguement).

I'm afraid you are talking about ordinary Win32 application... but not about drivers. Imagine this scenario: an application is trying to access a file. Resident protection of antivirus 1, that happens to be on "top" of the chain, detects the access, and redirects it somewhere else to scan the file. Now, the other antivirus detects the scanning of the file (which is just another access), redirects the request to its own code and tries to scan the file itself. Now, this file access is detected by the first antivirus again... and you're in an infinite loop (which will crash the system, of course).
And I'm not speaking about occassions when a virus is really detected... then the actions become even more interesting - it may actually result in the virus being missed, and possibly activated! (i.e. those 2 AV somehow "anihilate" each other).
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: bob3160 on May 19, 2005, 09:56:45 PM
Quote
However, as a current NAV customer, which doesn't appear to have any issues with avast being installed, only avast having issues with NAV, it appears to me to be a problem with avast.
If your computer had avast! installed and you then attempt to install NAV you will get a warning message advising you of the fact that
you have another AV program installed on your computer and it should be removed before installing NAV.
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: teknojnky on May 19, 2005, 10:15:57 PM
I'm afraid you are talking about ordinary Win32 application... but not about drivers. Imagine this scenario: an application is trying to access a file. Resident protection of antivirus 1, that happens to be on "top" of the chain, detects the access, and redirects it somewhere else to scan the file. Now, the other antivirus detects the scanning of the file (which is just another access), redirects the request to its own code and tries to scan the file itself. Now, this file access is detected by the first antivirus again... and you're in an infinite loop (which will crash the system, of course).

And I'm not speaking about occassions when a virus is really detected... then the actions become even more interesting - it may actually result in the virus being missed, and possibly activated! (i.e. those 2 AV somehow "anihilate" each other).

Regardless of where a program, process or driver resides within the various system levels of an OS, it can not (or should not) assume that that it will have exclusive access to any other part of the system (other than thru system allowed mutex api's). In fact for low level system drivers, making that assumption results scenarios alot like the above example (this happend frequently in the win9x days).

Similar to riding a motorcycle, 10% of the time you make sure YOU are not doing anything stupid or reckless, while 90% of the time your watching out for someone ELSE to do something stupid or reckless.

So, whether or not NAV may be making assumptions (which is bad), avast does not handle the situation gracefully either (which is bad too) and from and end user point of view, it doesnt matter which programs are at fault, they just want it to work.

Besides, I can't comment or complain about about other AV programs for which I have not tried to use.

In any case, I've said my piece. I appreciate the opportunity to voice my opinion and feedback.

Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Lisandro on May 19, 2005, 10:22:59 PM
OK, let's say they are not loaded. But - the corresponding records exist. It may simply mean that avast! is started a few milliseconds earlier than NAV - and Norton executable will load the drivers a few clockticks later, resulting in a system crash. That's the way it is. (Norton doesn't have any checks for avast!, of course, so it would attempt to load the drivers).
Another point: Windows does not have a deterministic start order. Programs are loaded without a know order. The crash will happen for sure. It's a Windows limitation too.

avast does not handle the situation gracefully either (which is bad too) and from and end user point of view, it doesnt matter which programs are at fault, they just want it to work.
The user could want bad things from time to time and the programmers should avoid this wrong choice. Not all the times the user is right  :-\
I don't think it's an avast limitation. It's a computer architecture limitation. You're trying to do what a lot of people alert to do not do: using two antivirus at the same time. Sooner or later, problems.
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: RejZoR on May 19, 2005, 10:25:18 PM
Oh boy ::)
IT'S NOT AN AVAST! FAULT if Norton is poorly coded. Why should Alwil guys waste resources and time on work thats not their own?
Trash Norton from SystemWorks package,install avast! and live happy ever after.
You can do that by Change option in SystemWorks installer.
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: bob3160 on May 19, 2005, 10:38:18 PM
RejZoR
100% correct. I have Systemworks on my system but, MINUS the AV part
and neither avast! nor Systemworks is complaining and or both doing their jobs in harmony.
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: niko on May 19, 2005, 11:09:21 PM
Une vérité vraie!
Quote
Trash Norton from SystemWorks package,install avast! and live happy ever after.
Today my new boss ask me:
"Tell me what you want concerning your laptop Niko"
My answer:
"I don't mind, Bernard, only one thing is important for me: a laptop without Norton, PLEASE".
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: kamulko on May 19, 2005, 11:49:16 PM
Hi, Niko! The same thing I said this afternoon to a Doctor who called me 'cause the problems on his personal laptop: he has Zone Alarm free and NAV. Tomorrow I will have an annoyng unistall of NAV junk files... many hours of work  :P (I'm converting all my Institute to Avast! eheheh  ;D ). Thanks for the croissant... yum yum... french croissant & cappuccino: the best cure of the early morning!
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: niko on May 19, 2005, 11:52:43 PM
Hi Kamulko,
Quote
Tomorrow I will have an annoyng unistall of NAV junk files...
Tomorrow I'll pray for you ;D
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: kamulko on May 19, 2005, 11:53:42 PM
I'm afraid you are talking about ordinary Win32 application... but not about drivers. Imagine this scenario: an application is trying to access a file. Resident protection of antivirus 1, that happens to be on "top" of the chain, detects the access, and redirects it somewhere else to scan the file. Now, the other antivirus detects the scanning of the file (which is just another access), redirects the request to its own code and tries to scan the file itself. Now, this file access is detected by the first antivirus again... and you're in an infinite loop (which will crash the system, of course).

And I'm not speaking about occassions when a virus is really detected... then the actions become even more interesting - it may actually result in the virus being missed, and possibly activated! (i.e. those 2 AV somehow "anihilate" each other).

Regardless of where a program, process or driver resides within the various system levels of an OS, it can not (or should not) assume that that it will have exclusive access to any other part of the system (other than thru system allowed mutex api's). In fact for low level system drivers, making that assumption results scenarios alot like the above example (this happend frequently in the win9x days).

Similar to riding a motorcycle, 10% of the time you make sure YOU are not doing anything stupid or reckless, while 90% of the time your watching out for someone ELSE to do something stupid or reckless.

So, whether or not NAV may be making assumptions (which is bad), avast does not handle the situation gracefully either (which is bad too) and from and end user point of view, it doesnt matter which programs are at fault, they just want it to work.

Besides, I can't comment or complain about about other AV programs for which I have not tried to use.

In any case, I've said my piece. I appreciate the opportunity to voice my opinion and feedback.


I work in a Clinic:"Better to prevent than to care!"... old wise proverb! Translation:"Better avoid to install NAV than waste many time for uninstall it!" eheheh
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: kamulko on May 19, 2005, 11:54:58 PM
Hi Kamulko,
Quote
Tomorrow I will have an annoyng unistall of NAV junk files...
Tomorrow I'll pray for you ;D
Thanks for your prayers... but I prefer another croissant! :-) Are you right, friend?
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Shalft on May 22, 2005, 12:13:29 PM
Regardless of where a program, process or driver resides within the various system levels of an OS, it can not (or should not) assume that that it will have exclusive access to any other part of the system (other than thru system allowed mutex api's). In fact for low level system drivers, making that assumption results scenarios alot like the above example (this happend frequently in the win9x days).
...
So, whether or not NAV may be making assumptions (which is bad), avast does not handle the situation gracefully either (which is bad too) and from and end user point of view, it doesnt matter which programs are at fault, they just want it to work.

Face it, anti-virus are not meant to be running concurrently, just like trying to watch a DVD movie on one program, and wishing to also be able to watch it on another program concurrently. It is not an ordinary program such as MSN Messenger vs Yahoo Messenger, or IExplorer vs FireFox. You either have one install or another, in your case, NAV is the issue and it's not AV. Because NAV is nasty little *$%# program.

Also someone mention earlier, installing the anti-virus program has procedure to detect existing programs. It's fair to say that, if NAV check and ask to remove existing anti-virus upon installation of the NAV. Then it should be perfectly ok for AV to get you to remove NAV before installing AV. It is your fault for being picky and lazy, or you can go and write an email to Symantec and tell them your problem with unable to uninstall the NAV component of the SystemWorks product.

I've recommended over 200 users over the last year because NAV simply is useless and every day I get people coming in (computer repair company) with NAV install on their system and either they can't remove it due to infection of viruses even with NAV was active.

I've plan to move another 1000 over the next year from NAV or others to Avast. That's how positive I think of Avast.

And so now I recommend you to remove any Symantec products off your system, because it is not worth the risk of infection.
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: polonus on May 22, 2005, 05:55:36 PM
Hi teknojnky,

This is a technical fact. It is all-right to have more scanners on a machine, but one should have the upper hand, competing av-scanners is as bad a thing as two firewalls on a machine. So a good policy is one good antivirus product on your box, like AVAST, and to run a on line scan occasionally like Bitdefender or others, and get stinger.exe from the net. This is a collection  of the latest MacAFEE  virus and trojan definitions as a free standalone download to run on your machine. Be responsible on the internet, and "you never surf alone". In this manner you will be aptly secure.

Best regards from,

polonus
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Lisandro on May 23, 2005, 02:41:13 AM
RejZoR
100% correct. I have Systemworks on my system but, MINUS the AV part
and neither avast! nor Systemworks is complaining and or both doing their jobs in harmony.

Here too... all besides NAV  8)
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: The Maxx on May 23, 2005, 04:10:50 AM
Well hate to tell you teknojnky but pretty much all AV's don't work with each other.  Two AV's that are using On-Access scanning at the sametime will cause conflicts.  Guess you could say they would be being heads.  Only time AVs really work together is when one or both of them is On-Demand only (such as BitDefender 7 Free Edition).

So I went go putting the blame on avast! or of course alwil at all.  It's just all AV's are this way.
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: teknojnky on May 23, 2005, 06:06:28 PM
I guess many of you are missing the point.

I am not trying to run both simultaniously.

I do not want to run both simultaniously.

I can not properly compare NAV to Avast without uninstalling NAV, which I find unacceptable.

NAV is already paid for, properly licensed and working correctly... avant is on a trial license and does not work correctly...

Disabling NAV through its standard options should be sufficient. (whether or not it is, is a different topic)

I do concede that there may (or may not) be parts of NAV that continue to load or are detected by avast which then causes avast to disable portions of itself.

I've disabled all norton start up processes and services, so any 'on access' NAV is not active. Avast still refuses to work fully, and this is the crux of my issue.

If someone knows some NAV files that continue to load which block avast, then feel free to point them out.

I do appreciate the comments and support of avast, however currently none of them solve my problem sufficiently.
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: DavidR on May 23, 2005, 07:41:11 PM
It is not the NAV files that continue to load but the registry entries (Legacy entries) that refer to them, since avast can't tell if they aren't going to be loaded after avast, it is forced to disable elements to ensure no conflict and or system lock up.

Quote
I can not properly compare NAV to Avast without uninstalling NAV, which I find unacceptable.

NAV is already paid for, properly licensed and working correctly... avant is on a trial license and does not work correctly...
In that case you will not be able to evaluate avast.

As has been said previously it is not avast that isn't working correctly, it is working as designed to avoid conflict/lock-ups by not having two resident scanners installed (and the subsequent blame my system locks up after I installed avast, with no mantion of the NAV also installed).

Unfortunately you are in a catch 22 situation you can't fully test avast with NAV installed.
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: bob3160 on May 23, 2005, 08:18:56 PM
teknojnky
Remember you aren't the only NAV Registered user. If you have a valid license, then uninstalling NAV in order to
test avast! isn't any problem. I did it. I preferred avast! and I now own avast! Pro. I still have a valid license to NAV but,
that was my choice. You'll have to make yours.
Should you decide that you like NAV better , you can always reinstall it using your valid liscense. :)
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: The Maxx on May 23, 2005, 08:50:50 PM
Well you have two main choices then.  You can either uninstall NAV to test avast! and choice the one you like best.  Or you can wait till your NAV license is expired then test avast!

I have tried a number of AVs over the years and avast! by far is the one I like best.  I've had NAV 2003 and 2004, McAfee, Dr. Web, ArcaVir, NOD32, etc  Most of them were good but theres just something about avast!  For one the tech support here is great, you get answers pretty fast.  Write Norton people and see how fast they reply, I wrote them and took days to over a week to hear from them.  alwil are always working on avast! to make it better and always listening to us to see what we want added.   :D
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Lisandro on May 23, 2005, 11:02:37 PM
NAV is already paid for, properly licensed and working correctly... avant is on a trial license and does not work correctly...
Will never work correctly if you do not uninstall NAV... This way you won't be able to compare avast. Can you use another computer?

Disabling NAV through its standard options should be sufficient.
No, it's not.

I do concede that there may (or may not) be parts of NAV that continue to load or are detected by avast which then causes avast to disable portions of itself. I've disabled all norton start up processes and services, so any 'on access' NAV is not active.
It's not true... Legacy drivers could be loaded... See: HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Enum\Root\LEGACY keys...

If someone knows some NAV files that continue to load which block avast, then feel free to point them out.
We're trying to do so...

I do appreciate the comments and support of avast, however currently none of them solve my problem sufficiently.
You can try receiving any help from Symantec on installing a second AV to test  8)
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: polonus on May 23, 2005, 11:45:07 PM
Hi teknojnky,

There is no problem. If you have a licensed Norton version, you can always re-install it later, if you would wish to do so. I personally would not, because I had some bad experiences with the Norton boys, although I must be fair in this, it was not their fault. It was because the Verisign boys served up something bad, that kept the upload of pages ages. That's why, but if you are happy with them, good for you. This incident made them loose  them a lot of customers, poor devils.

Greetings,

polonus
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Yinyang4evry1 on July 29, 2005, 05:35:42 PM
whoa... that first message was kinda cold  ;D ;D and funny
but i'm on my "testing version of my pc"
Norton and Mcafee seems fine with my avast
yea Norton is a hog of my system resources
every time Norton would appear with one of their messages saying like lexxps.exe or something like that is waiting for a scan. I wonder why it does that because that freezes my netscape browser.

cheers every1,
tim
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Lisandro on July 29, 2005, 05:52:46 PM
Norton and Mcafee seems fine with my avast
What do you mean, they firewall or all the antivirus program?
Are you using more than one antivirus at the same time in the same computer?  :o
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Yinyang4evry1 on July 29, 2005, 11:02:05 PM
yea I know it sounds weird but antivirus and firewall
I haven't been caring for my computer ever since:
When I first got I knew ABSOLUTELY NOTHING(besides double-clicking and the basics such as typing in stuff and pressing buttons)
the scary thing was I didn't even use a firewall
then my computer started to really break down so I'm kinda using it as a test computer for now ( even if I recover it it seems that the hidden files in the recovery partition might be corrupted because even if I recover, my computer will still have some errors )
so I'm kinda just trying to check which is best for me and then on
year 2006 around early February, which will be my lucky time, I will do a full "fix" on my computer and install the software I found to be useful


but if anyone thinks that using all that together is really bad please tell me because two firewalls and two AV clash

thanks,
tim ;D
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: MFB on July 29, 2005, 11:04:31 PM
yea I know it sounds weird but antivirus and firewall
I haven't been caring for my computer ever since:
When I first got I knew ABSOLUTELY NOTHING(besides double-clicking and the basics such as typing in stuff and pressing buttons)
the scary thing was I didn't even use a firewall
then my computer started to really break down so I'm kinda using it as a test computer for now ( even if I recover it it seems that the hidden files in the recovery partition might be corrupted because even if I recover, my computer will still have some errors )
so I'm kinda just trying to check which is best for me and then on
year 2006 around early February, which will be my lucky time, I will do a full "fix" on my computer and install the software I found to be useful


but if anyone thinks that using all that together is really bad please tell me because two firewalls and two AV clash

thanks,
tim ;D

Dude, think of all the RAM you're wasting, not to mention the conflicts you're gonna have pretty soon.   ::) ;D
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Yinyang4evry1 on July 29, 2005, 11:08:47 PM
that was a pretty quick response, after reading what Igor said,I'm pretty spooked because I really don't want my recovery files to be messed up. I'm uninstalling the extras before shutting down, as recovering is always my last hope after my comp messes up
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: MFB on July 29, 2005, 11:11:11 PM
You're wayyy over protective, which is good.  You only need one firewall and at least one antivirus with one resident shield enable.  Most of us use Bit Defender or Clamwin antivirus cause they don't conflict with avast! at all.   :)
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: bob3160 on July 29, 2005, 11:16:14 PM
Quote
Most of us use Bit Defender or Clamwin antivirus cause they don't conflict with avast! at all.   
Cause they aren't resident. ;D
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: MFB on July 29, 2005, 11:21:48 PM
Quote
Most of us use Bit Defender or Clamwin antivirus cause they don't conflict with avast! at all.   
Cause they aren't resident. ;D

Oh oops, forgot to put the reason why.  Thanks Bob  ;D
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Yinyang4evry1 on July 29, 2005, 11:24:01 PM
wats avast evangelist? ???
and what are the sites to those antivirus that don't clash
I'm always afraid to click on a wrong site and download it from the wrong source and get malware :'(

tim ;D
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: MFB on July 29, 2005, 11:30:43 PM
ClamWin (http://www.clamwin.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=40&Itemid=25)

BitDefender (http://www.bitdefender.com/PRODUCT-14-en--BitDefender-Free-Edition-v7.html)
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Yinyang4evry1 on July 29, 2005, 11:36:52 PM
i would have never thought
the name and .com ;D
thanks
hey whats avast evangelist?

tim
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: darth.mikey on July 29, 2005, 11:38:25 PM
wats avast evangelist? ???
and what are the sites to those antivirus that don't clash
I'm always afraid to click on a wrong site and download it from the wrong source and get malware :'(

tim ;D
evangelist is someone who has been here a long time so called veteran of this forum(made alot of posts) ;)
www.majorgeeks.com (http://www.majorgeeks.com) here you'll find all you need it's a clean site :)

Mikey
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: MFB on July 29, 2005, 11:40:28 PM
i would have never thought
the name and .com ;D
thanks


tim

I don't really get you're last post, just click on the name and it will lead you to the link.  :)
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: darth.mikey on July 29, 2005, 11:48:53 PM
I think he wanted to say that he didn't figure that for example bitdefender site is simply www.bitdefender.com   ;)


Mikey
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Yinyang4evry1 on July 29, 2005, 11:52:19 PM
yup
 ;D

tim
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: MFB on July 29, 2005, 11:53:24 PM
Oh I see, but my link will automatically take you the the page where you can click on the download button.  ;)
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: lakrsrool on August 06, 2005, 08:23:55 PM
The Maxx wrote:
Quote
I have tried a number of AVs over the years and avast! by far is the one I like best.  I've had NAV 2003 and 2004, McAfee, Dr. Web, ArcaVir, NOD32, etc 

How would you compare Avas to NOD32 as far as speed and system resource usage ?

NOD32 claims to use the lowest system resources and have the quickest scanning speeds as compared to a few of the major AV programs.  No comparison is made to Avast, however.

Thanks...
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Lisandro on August 06, 2005, 08:45:46 PM
NOD32 claims to be use the lowest system resources and be have the quickest scanning speeds as compared to a few of the major AV programs.  No comparison is made to Avast, however.
Well, I think there are a lot of comparisons/review including NOD32 and avast! in the web. If you search this board for the keyword NOD32 you'll find some differences. Negative points as far I could know:
NOD32 is not free!
avast! does not use Heuristics (lower detection), on-demand scan is not fast.
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: lakrsrool on August 06, 2005, 08:55:51 PM
I intend on removing Norton AV and I've noticed it does not have an uninstall program for 2004 version.  I will apparently have to use the Add/Remove function in the Windows Control Panel.

After 7 years, my reasons are many some of which is that it does not work so well on my ancient 98SE OS and was not addressed by their very slow to respond tech support.  It will hang my computer now and then and also will usually launch my dialup (box) window on shutdown for no reason.  It used to also launch the dialup window on boot until I turned off the auto update, which btw, was essentially non-functional with my dial-up.  It seems that Symantic has elected to focus on the newer OS's at the expense of my 98SE OS as well as to ignore dial-up users issues.

I have heard, just as some have posted here, that Norton does not uninstall well.

Before I do so, are there any suggestions which might helpl me to avoid problems.
Title: Re: avast & norton conflicts
Post by: Lisandro on August 06, 2005, 09:16:23 PM
I intend on removing Norton AV and I've noticed it does not have an uninstall program for 2004 version.
Before I do so, are there any suggestions which might helpl me to avoid problems.

A lot of people who used NAV and want to use another antivirus now, have a lot of trouble with completely uninstalling Norton.
See http://forum.avast.com/index.php?topic=12583.msg106379#msg106379

1. Remove through "Add/ remove programms"
2. Then for Windows 98/Me use here (http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/tsgeninfo.nsf/docid/2004020915570606?Open&src=&docid=2001092114452606&nsf=nav.nsf&view=docid&dtype=&prod=&ver=&osv=&osv_lvl=).

Oh, avast! works and updates smoothly with Windows 98  ;)