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Other => General Topics => Topic started by: bbfi on October 16, 2003, 02:16:42 AM

Title: Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: bbfi on October 16, 2003, 02:16:42 AM
I am having a problem that I wonder if anyone else has had or is having.  The info for my system is -
WinXP Home (5.1.2600) SP1
IE Shell 6.0.2800.1106
Pentium 4 - 1.5 GHz - 512MB RAM
True Launch Bar 2.2.0.7
MyIE2 0.8.2070 Browser
Spamihilator 0.9.7.2
avast! 4.1 home edition
Agnitum Outpost Firewall 1.01817

After my computer runs for 5 hours or more, I start to have system resource problems (yes, I have Windows XP which is suppose to be free from this problem).  First, text begins to disappear on the screen, then icons, then error messages pop up such as low on system resources.  :'(

I have searched the web, various forums, Microsoft's site, etc. and have tried just about every so call cure for this problem.  I have even learned that the problem of running out of system resources has not been done away with, just that it is managed better with Windows XP.

I tried various configurations mentioned at http://www.blkviper.com/WinXP/servicecfg.htm by shutting down and disabling many of Microsoft's services which I do not need.  This included System Restore (which is buggy and many restore points eventually disappear, even new ones) and Themes (now using Windows Classic Style).

I have also done a complete reinstall of Windows XP and installed all of the updates and patches available from Microsoft.  I also updated my video card to an ATI Radeon 7000 with 64 mb ddr dram.

I did not have this problem when I first got the computer.  Does anyone think that it could be all of Microsoft's updates and patches?  Or does anyone have any other ideas?  It's a pain that I have to restart the computer after 5 to 7 hours.  Any ideas would be appreciated.  Thanks.
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: techie101 on October 16, 2003, 06:37:55 AM
bbfi,

Wow....It is apparent that you are suffering from a memory leakage problem.  This can occur for many different reasons.

Many programs do not release memory resources when you exit them, leaving the memory marked as in use when it's actually free. Programs are supposed to release all memory resources upon exiting. But many don't. This memory loss is called "leakage," and it is cumulative: Run a program with a leak ten times and you'll lose ten times as much memory.

1.  You could have old or conflicting Windows device drivers. An example would be you might actually have two entirely different video drivers on your system and Windows could actually be alternately using both of them.
To prevent this problem, First boot the computer in Safe Mode by pressing and holding the F8 key during startup, after the DOS memory check has completed.
While in Safe Mode select Start/Settings/Control Panel/System/Devices. Click on all the devices and see if the various drivers have any yellow or red exclamation marks (which indicates a driver conflict) and also determine if there are any duplicate drivers that can be eliminated.
You may have to delete and reload a driver to correct these problems. Duplicate drivers can and should be deleted.

2.  Check your setting of Virtual Memory management.  (Right click on My Computer/Properties/Performance/Virtual Memory tab)
Make sure that "Let Windows manage my virtual memory settings" is checked.

3.   At this point, we need to figure out what program or operation is causing it.
The only way I know of to accomplish this is to disable all non-essential programs in the startup list so that Windows does not load them.
Firewall and Avast process should be kept in the startup list as well as Systray.  
Monitor your system usage to see if there is any degradation.  If not, then put back 2 programs at a time and repeat the procedure until you isolate the program/s that are causing the leak.
Then we can work on those to see if there is a patch or fix we can get ahold of to plug the leak up.

4.  Refer to this article...it may help:
http://www.altacan.com/sitepages/product_pages/Tips_inter/resource/resource.htm
Go down to the section entitled:  "Memory Leakage and Restarting Windows"

5.  You can also try a post at www. protonic.com
They provide free technical assistance on just about anything.

Sorry I cannot give you any more specific advice, but many factors can cause memory leakage.  I'm kind of shootin in the dark here.   ;D


Good luck.
techie101
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: bbfi on October 16, 2003, 05:28:06 PM
techie101,

Thanks for advice.   ;)

1) I checked the drivers as you mentioned.  No problems there.   :)

2) My system has "Let Windows manage my virtual memory settings" checked.   :)

3) I have stopped all unessential programs from loading at startup, except avast, Outpost Firewall, Restore It (a replacement for System Restore.  My memory problem started way before I installed Restore It), and Spamihilator (spam checker that I installed after my memory problem started).   ;)

Now I'll just have to wait and see and gradually add programs.   ::)
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Walker on October 16, 2003, 10:26:53 PM
Hi bbfi,

This is not my knowledge, it can be acredited to one of the official Avast team (Vlk) from another thread.

Anyway, I was having problems with drivers/crashes and Vlk advised me that Outpost firewall can cause problems. I took the advice and removed Outpost and it cured the problem I had at the time.

Just a suggestion.
Walker
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: techie101 on October 17, 2003, 12:56:00 AM
bb,

OK...let's see what happens without all the startup programs running.

Now that Walker mentions it, I did try Outpost awhile back and it didn't work well so I went over to Sygate for my WinXP and Zone Alarm for my W98.  They seem to like each other and AVAST!

It can't hurt to uninstall Outpost temporarily.

Good luck
techie101
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Walker on October 17, 2003, 01:20:45 AM
bbfi,

Just another thing that might jog Techie (would mean nothing to me, but will, no doubt to T 101 and others).

What is the FULL version number of Avast that your using?... there has been a couple of hickups lately.

I'm only really 'thinking aloud'  :) ;)

Walker
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Dave50 on October 17, 2003, 02:57:20 PM
bbfi...

Just a couple of thoughts.  If you're running a firewall program, make sure the Windows XP firewall is turned off.  If you remove your firewall program, then engage the XP firewall.

And yes, Windows Updates do strange things to some computers.  There's no pattern either.  Some work with them, some don't.  I had all sorts of troubles and got rid of them and my computer hasn't had a lick of trouble since.  You might want to try it as an experiment.

Dave
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: bbfi on October 17, 2003, 04:10:49 PM
Great News!    :D

My system has been running now for almost 15 hours with NO problems. I have attached a photo of Task Manager.  This is after 15 hours and with 28 IE6 windows open, MyIE2 with 183 tabs opened, 12 Dopus windows opened, Copernic Agent Basic opened, and all the other programs seen in the Task Manager photo.  I found the culprit that was causing the system resource problem.

The Bad News!   :-[

Since I was still having problems after disabling all unessential programs from starting at startup, I decided to first try changing my antivirus checker.  I turned off Avast 4.1 and installed AVG 6 free version.  The PROBLEM is gone.  No more disappearing text, buttons, etc.  I am disappointed in my findings though because I really like Avast 4.1.  It is a great virus checker, but with my computer setup, it appears that it robs me of memory and causes the crashes after running for 5 to 8 hours.

Also, throughout this frustrating time I have had, I have learned a lot.

1) Windows XP still has a system resource problem although well hid from the public.  While searching the web, I have read many instances of this.  I have also experienced it first hand.  More than once, the error message of running low of system resources has popped up.  What Windows XP does is that it manages it much better and overall, it is a far better OS than its predecessors.   ;)

2) I have found out first hand from the forums I have posted to, that there are a lot of helpful people out there in Cyberspace willing to offer their time and knowledge to help those out there with problems.  I'd like to say THANK YOU to all of you for making me feel welcome to their forums and leading me in the right direction with a problem which could make your hair turn gray.    ;D
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: techie101 on October 17, 2003, 04:51:15 PM
Great News!    :D

2) I have found out first hand from the forums I have posted to, that there are a lot of helpful people out there in Cyberspace willing to offer their time and knowledge to help those out there with problems.  I'd like to say THANK YOU to all of you for making me feel welcome to their forums and leading me in the right direction with a problem which could make your hair turn gray.    ;D

BBfi,

As it turned out, Avast was only the trigger but not the cause.  Too bad.  We offer our help freely and when we hear comments like yours,  it makes this all worthwhile.  Sorry we could not do more.

Best Wishes,
techie101 et al.
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: bbfi on October 17, 2003, 11:32:22 PM
techie101,

Thanks for the comments.  

My computer is still up and running almost 23 hours. Like I said before, Avast is a great virus checker and I miss using it with its automatic updates, great email checking, and vocal warnings. I guess certain configurations, software, and hardware cause some programs to act strange and out of the ordinary at times, even though for 99.9% of the users, the software works fine.   :-\

I will continue to browse this forum.  Perhaps in a future upgrade or if I get a different computer, things will work out and I'll be able to come back to Avast.   ;)
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Lisandro on October 18, 2003, 04:30:27 AM
Since I was still having problems after disabling all unessential programs from starting at startup, I decided to first try changing my antivirus checker.  I turned off Avast 4.1 and installed AVG 6 free version.  The PROBLEM is gone.  No more disappearing text, buttons, etc.  I am disappointed in my findings though because I really like Avast 4.1.  It is a great virus checker, but with my computer setup, it appears that it robs me of memory and causes the crashes after running for 5 to 8 hours.

To turn off an av and install another is not a good procedure (I my point of view). If you want avast! again, try to do a complete uninstall of both antivirus and try to install just avast!. If avast! ask a question about the existence of another antivirus previous installed, please, let us know this message. Maybe you have a conflit between the antivirus (or the previous installations of them).
I have a XP without any trouble with avast! and ZoneAlarm...  ;)

I tried various configurations mentioned at http://www.blkviper.com/WinXP/servicecfg.htm by shutting down and disabling many of Microsoft's services which I do not need.
These actions - disabling Windows Services - is quite an advanced task. Avast! requires at least RPC service... You can cause more conflits doing so. Be smart! Good luck. If you need more help, tell us  ;)
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Lisandro on November 08, 2003, 09:12:01 PM
I am having a problem that I wonder if anyone else has had or is having.  The info for my system is -
WinXP Home (5.1.2600) SP1
IE Shell 6.0.2800.1106
Pentium 4 - 1.5 GHz - 512MB RAM
True Launch Bar 2.2.0.7
MyIE2 0.8.2070 Browser
Spamihilator 0.9.7.2
avast! 4.1 home edition
Agnitum Outpost Firewall 1.01817

To configure Spamihilator and avast! to be used in the same computer, please, see this related forum (http://www.avast.com/forum/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=1622).
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: bbfi on November 09, 2003, 01:12:06 AM
Technical,

Thanks for trying to give me ideas for running Avast on my system.  I have changed a few programs since my initial problem with system resources triggered by Avast.  As you can see I now use Zone Alarm Firewall 3.7.211, SpamPal 1.52, and AVG 6.0 Free.   ::)

I went back to SpamPal because it is better than Spamihilator (SpamPal catches about 99% spam and keeps on improving and marks less than .5% good emails as spam).  Spamihilator is also good but marked too many good emails as spam and its spam catching was only about 90% even with much training.   :o

I decided to try Zone Alarm Firewall 3.7.211 to see how it is now.  Zone Alarm Firewall was the first I ever tried when I had Win 98 but changed due to its high system resource problem which appears to be gone now.  Also, I tried it because you mentioned that it was the one you used with Avast.  I still had the system resource problem with Avast after changing to Zone Alarm Firewall.  And I did everything possible to make Avast work with my system including a complete reinstall of Win XP from a blank harddrive.  However, no good, the problem still happened after 4 to 6 hours of running.   ???

Since changing over to AVG 6 free, there have been no problems at all.  My computer can run all day and night with no signs of flaking out as it did before.  I have runned many programs all at once and the computer remains stable.   :)

This is one of the times when a program just won't work with a system because of the configuration, programs, and hardware installed.  I sure do miss Avast but it doesn't work on my computer which is frustrating to say the least.  AVG 6 is decent and a good free alternative but it doesn't have all of the bells and whistles that Avast does and Avast catches and notifies of viruses in emails much better than AVG.   :'(

But, I have not given up yet.  I try to view the Avast forum daily and whenever a major update is mentioned in the future, I'll give it a try again and maybe one day, it'll work on my computer.   ;)
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Lisandro on November 09, 2003, 03:26:52 PM
techie101,

Thanks for the comments.  

My computer is still up and running almost 23 hours. Like I said before, Avast is a great virus checker and I miss using it with its automatic updates, great email checking, and vocal warnings. I guess certain configurations, software, and hardware cause some programs to act strange and out of the ordinary at times, even though for 99.9% of the users, the software works fine.   :-\

I will continue to browse this forum.  Perhaps in a future upgrade or if I get a different computer, things will work out and I'll be able to come back to Avast.   ;)

What happened... Your system was ok with avast...  :'(

Culpeper always recommend SpamPal instead of Spamihilator... I give a try but I have no conclusive thoughts about SpamPal in comparison with Spamihilator (which I'm using now). I used AVG 6.0 Free for a long time but, for me, it does not reach the 'desired' features for my system, avast is much better for me.

Your first troubles (text begins to disappear on the screen, then icons, then error messages pop up such as low on system resources...) seem related to hardware. I have some troubles with the video drivers (NVIDIA TNT2) and just after 2 updates I get rid from them.

Please, ask for help by IM to Vlk or Igor. I'm sure avast! team could help your trouble but I'm surprised that they did not answer this forum yet!  >:(
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: bbfi on November 10, 2003, 07:38:57 PM
Hi Technical,

Quote
What happened... Your system was ok with avast...

Actually, my system was never okay with Avast.  I just didn't notice the problem until I kept my computer on for more than 4 hours which I have started to do in the past 2 months.   :-\

Quote
Culpeper always recommend SpamPal instead of Spamihilator... I give a try but I have no conclusive thoughts about SpamPal in comparison with Spamihilator (which I'm using now).

SpamPal and Spamihilator are both very good programs.  I have used both, but I find SpamPal to be more reliable.   ;)

Quote
Your first troubles (text begins to disappear on the screen, then icons, then error messages pop up such as low on system resources...) seem related to hardware. I have some troubles with the video drivers (NVIDIA TNT2) and just after 2 updates I get rid from them.

I also thought that my NVidia card might be the problem.  Updated all the drivers with no change.  Then, I switched to ATI Radeon 7000 series.  The problem still remained.   ???

Quote
Please, ask for help by IM to Vlk or Igor. I'm sure avast! team could help your trouble but I'm surprised that they did not answer this forum yet!

Well, at least I heard from you, techie101, Dave50, and Walker.   ;)
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Lisandro on November 10, 2003, 07:56:51 PM
bbfi, it's quite difficult to me to figure out what is happening in your system. Unfortunatelly, 'memory leakage' is not an easy thread for me. I suggest again you try to send an IM to Igor (Vlk is working outside of the office, until I know)  :'(
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: bbfi on November 10, 2003, 10:47:32 PM
Technical,

Presently, without Avast, I have no 'memory leakage' problem anymore.  Everything works great now.   ;)

I have spent so much time in trying to get Avast to work on my system, that right now, I no longer can afford to dedicate time to this problem.  In order to find out if the problem persisted, my computer would have to run continously for 4 to 8 hours.   Each time I tried a suggestion, I would have to wait that amount of time to see if it worked.   :o

Not only did I have suggestions from this forum, but also from 4 other ones and various other websites.  I must have tried every option given with no success, other than uninstalling Avast which got rid of the problem all together.  So, for the time being, I will use the setup I am now running until A future major release of Avast comes out and I have some free time to experiment more on this situation.   ;)

Thanks for your concern.   :D
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Lisandro on November 11, 2003, 03:24:51 AM
Technical,

Presently, without Avast, I have no 'memory leakage' problem anymore.  Everything works great now.   ;)

I have spent so much time in trying to get Avast to work on my system, that right now, I no longer can afford to dedicate time to this problem.  In order to find out if the problem persisted, my computer would have to run continously for 4 to 8 hours.   Each time I tried a suggestion, I would have to wait that amount of time to see if it worked.   :o

Not only did I have suggestions from this forum, but also from 4 other ones and various other websites.  I must have tried every option given with no success, other than uninstalling Avast which got rid of the problem all together.  So, for the time being, I will use the setup I am now running until A future major release of Avast comes out and I have some free time to experiment more on this situation.   ;)

Thanks for your concern.   :D

We will be here if you want to come back. I just want to say you that this is quite the best antivirus forum. It´s a pitty that your system does not run avast! well. Anyway, thank you for your time. Come back anytime.  ;)
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Taikonaut on November 12, 2003, 05:34:51 PM
Hi, basically I have been having a similar problem - when I have avast! installed and running, my computer will eventually run out of resources.

Specs:
WinXP Pro + SP1 + Updates
AMD 1GHz, 256MB RAM, fixed size swap file 512MB

avast! 4.1 Home Edition (4.1.289)
Kerio Personal Firewall 2.1.5
P2P client eMule

I noticed this problem when my computer started running 24/7. For a long time (6 months or so) I put the blame on eMule and just rebooted the computer every 3-4 days (that’s around the time Windows became unusable). Recently I decided to get to the bottom of this problem and traced the leak to the Kernel Memory Paged Pool. Tried to trace the leak in there with WinXP's "verifier" but without results (when tried to verify all drivers Win didn't boot up in normal mode and then tried by manually selecting all non Microsoft drivers - this time things worked but none of the drivers seemed to be responsible for the leak). Then decided to start uninstalling programs that run 24/7. The first one I uninstalled was avast! and the problem was gone. Uptime 7 days and Paged Pool around 40MB. Then installed avast! again and 1,5 days and Paged Pool is already at 80MB and rising :(

So I would really like to continue using avast! (IMHO its light years ahead of other free antiviruses) but at the moment it seems that the mixture of my other software + avast! doesn't work for me. ???
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: bbfi on November 12, 2003, 11:43:44 PM
Hi Taikonaut,

For awhile, I thought that I was the only one having this problem.   ::)

And, like you, it is a shame that we have to choose either running Avast (superior to other freebies) and restarting our systems after 5 hours in my case or 3-4 days in yours (I'd settle for that even) or using different software.   :'(

Any ideas about this situation Vlk or Igor?   ???
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: igor on November 13, 2003, 04:32:54 PM
Vlk is not around it seems and I don't know much about resource leaking...

If I should say something, I would probably:
1. like to see the snapshot of the Task Manager (similar to the one on the previous page of this thread) with avast! when the problems are present - preferably at the moment you notice that the text is disappearing or something like that. Or even better - do a few snapshots (lets say every hour) until the problem appears. Then check if any number is constantly rising... maybe some of the columns (handles, USER objects, GDI objects, VM size) would have some useful info...

2. try various options to see if they have any effect on the problem. For example, would disabling the Standard Shield help? Or does it really leak even if you boot the computer and don't touch it for the next few hours - no apps running (net etc.)?

Maybe it has already been tried, but I didn't see such info in this thread...
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: bbfi on November 13, 2003, 10:54:55 PM
igor,

I have attached a snapshot with avast running a while back.  I don't have any others now since I uninstalled avast for the time being (when I have free time I might try again).  This snapshot was taken with only essential programs running and eventually after 5 hours, the problems began.  Usually by that time, I can't do anything with the computer like taking a snapshot.   :o

I did try running avast with only two processes (email and standard sheild).  Also, I stopped the system server process for updating avast (aswUpdSv.exe) which did add about 1 to 2 hours of uptime for me.   ::)

The problems occurred with or without using the computer.  I could leave it alone for 5 hours, come back to it, and the screen would be full of error messages and disappearing text, etc.  ???

Maybe Taikonaut could shed some light on these questions of yours.  Taikonaut did seem to do a lot of different tests that I didn't.   :-\
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Lisandro on November 14, 2003, 01:55:09 AM

Vlk is not around it seems and I don't know much about resource leaking...

If I should say something, I would probably:

Like to see the snapshot of the Task Manager (similar to the one on the previous page of this thread) with avast! when the problems are present - preferably at the moment you notice that the text is disappearing or something like that. Or even better - do a few snapshots (lets say every hour) until the problem appears. Then check if any number is constantly rising... maybe some of the columns (handles, USER objects, GDI objects, VM size) would have some useful info...

Come back Vlk! (joke) How is your trip?
Talking seriously now, Igor, is there any way to log the error and not just take a snapshot... As bbfi said, the user (me included!) cannot take a snapshot on a freezed system... I see Windows Events but I cannot discover anything why  my system freezes sometimes...  :P
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Vlk on November 14, 2003, 03:25:47 AM
;D
Chill out Technical, I'm not DEAD!!!
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Dave50 on November 14, 2003, 04:41:23 AM
Hello everyone!  I've been reading and re-reading this thread ever since it started last month and I think bbfi may've found the cause of his problem in his very first post when he asked if it could be Microsoft's updates and patches.  Let me explain...

bbfi's computer stats are similar to mine.  I've also got
512mb ram and my processor's a Pentium 4 at 1.8 ghz.
I'm also running XP home.

Avast is a GREAT antivirus, but yes, it does use a lot of memory.  If I boot up and just let my computer sit for a while and then check task manager, avast is using between 18,000k and 22,000k of memory.  McAfee 7 and Norton 2003 each use between 7,000k and 8,000k of ram and AVG-6 Free uses around 1,500k.  BIG DIFFERENCE!  However, 512mb ram is more than enough for avast and other applications.  I checked all of these with clean installs of XP and I do not have more than one antivirus on my computer.

With Windows Updates, my computer will slow to a crawl (with avast) after 3 to 4 hours.  Rebooting solves the problem for another 3 to 4 hours.  Cycle repeats.  If I uninstall avast and use any of the other antivirus programs mentioned, no problem.

Now, if I do a clean install of XP and DO NOT install any Windows Updates, there is no problem with using avast.
I do not believe avast is the cause of any problem.  Rather, it could be a trigger with something in one or more of the Windows Updates.

I've said this repeatedly in other threads -- several computer companies (HP and Dell especially) are 'unofficially' telling customers with problems not to install Windows Updates.  There are many people who have slower computers and less ram but have no problems using avast and having Windows Updates.  This is what is so perplexing.  Just read the online forums and you'll find complaint after complaint about computer performance and Windows Updates.  Some computers work with them, some don't and there's no concrete reason discovered yet why this is so.  bbfi and I may be some of the 'chosen' whose machines simply don't like Windows Updates.

I make a radical suggestion to bbfi to try and solve the problem once and for all.  Wipe your hard drive, reformat and do a clean install of XP.  TURN OFF WINDOWS UPDATES, install avast and see what happens.  If the problem persists, then it's possible bbfi's computer just doesn't like avast.  I know of several cases where a computer just won't work with some programs or software, regardless of how good they are.

Personally, I think avast is fabulous and the avast team is superb.  And, if my computer works with avast better without Windows Updates, then they go -- not avast.

Dave





Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: igor on November 14, 2003, 10:02:11 AM
Technical: I don't know what to log... if the system behaves strangely, and we don't know why - what information should we log? There is no apparent error...
Therefore, I was suggesting to take snapshot of the values e.g. every hour. If some of the number would be continuously rising (and it will not be IE cache, for example :)) - then we found something suspicious.

Dave: Are you looking at the correct column when checking the occupied memory? You should look at "Virtual Memory Size", not "Memory Usage".
As for the Windows updates - while it would be nice to find the true reason, not installing the updates is not a solution... remember the Blaster worm?
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Dave50 on November 14, 2003, 12:14:05 PM
Igor -- I do recognize the importance of security.  What I was trying to convey to bbfi was simply a test to see if Windows Updates were causing the problem.  Sorry if it didn't come out that way.  I don't want anyone's computer at risk.

As for the columns to look at -- you might be able to help me.  All I see with Task Manager under "Processes" are columns for Image Name, User Name, CPU and Mem Usage.  There is no column for Virtual Memory Size.  What do I need to check or adjust in order to see that?

Thanks,
Dave
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Lisandro on November 14, 2003, 12:18:26 PM
;D
Chill out Technical, I'm not DEAD!!!

I'm happy to know this  ;D
But Vlk, when you have some time, please try to look around memory leakages and system resources threads. They are too complicated for 'common' users... We stay shooting in the dark without technical knowleage  ;)

Dave, I fully agree with you. Perhaps my last troubles are due to Windows Update. Who knows... It takes a lot of time to discover.

Igor: I know what to log: the increase of memory consume... (values that continuous rise or the suspicious things you talk about). Snapshots are quite difficult, requires user answers all the time. Windows make dump files (memory and drivers troubles I suppose) but they are 'binaries' with nonsense information for common users. Is there a way to log memory useage?
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Dave50 on November 14, 2003, 12:29:30 PM
Igor -- I found my way around and now have a column for virtual memory size.  I'll do some experiments over the weekend.

Technical -- I'm with you!  It takes a lot of time to try and figure out whether Windows Updates are causing problems on a particular system.  Honestly, I can't tell you how many hours I've spent on reformatting and reinstalling XP to make sure there's no 'garbage' left to try and discover some answers.

I'm off to work now and will do some digging over the next two days.  I'll post again if I find anything out.

Thanks to all.  We learn something new, exchange ideas and thoughts.  That's good!

Dave
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Taikonaut on November 14, 2003, 03:24:35 PM
Well, in my case the leak happened only in Kernel Memory Paged Pool (Memory->Pool Paged Bytes in PerfMon) and none of the processes showed any sign of leaking. I'll post also a pic of what pool i'm just talking about, I mean MS calls the same type of memory with different names in different places (VM and Private bytes etc.).

When it comes to memory logging, then at least WinXP Pro has quite nice tools for that. You should look at Control Panel -> Administrative Tools -> Performance (or Run:"perfmon") from there you can set it to log hundreds of things.
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Vlk on November 14, 2003, 06:59:45 PM
Taikonaut, why do you think the paged pool is being leaked? 37MB sounds like a very reasonable value to me... Just to make things little clearer: the paged pool, together with the non-paged pool, is basically the memory allocated by device drivers. avast indeed has a couple of device drivers, and uses some memory from these pools, but not excessive amounts (normally less then 1 megabyte).

Dave50, I'm still lil' confused: are you saying that
- if you install clean XP (no SP's) and avast, everything's OK
- if you install all the critical updates and SP1 on that machine (that is, just the Critical Updates, e.g. using the Windows Update tool), it starts to leak? If so, this sounds like something we should be able to simulate in our labs... BTW what's the best way to demonstrate the leak (ie. to bring the machine down), according to your experience?

Thanks
Vlk (from Redmond :))

Vlk
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Dave50 on November 14, 2003, 09:20:26 PM
Vlk -- yes.  If I clean install Windows XP and leave all Windows Updates off the computer, avast works fine and the computer performs perfectly.  If I then download Windows Updates (SP1 and critical updates), the computer works fine for 3-5 hours and then it starts slowing down dramatically and eventually applications start hanging.  If I uninstall avast, problem is cured.  If I leave Windows Updates off, problem doesn't happen.
There are no signs of anything wrong other than the slowdown until the application hanging errors appear.
Problem is, Vlk, this doesn't happen on everyone's computer.  I have friends who have the same machine I do, they use avast, and have no trouble with Windows Update.  This is why Dell and HP are telling some people to ignore Windows Updates -- they don't know why it happens either and rather than try to find out what's going on, they feel ignoring the updates is the easiest solution.

Dave
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Vlk on November 14, 2003, 10:24:07 PM
Quote
I have friends who have the same machine I do

You mean exactly the same make or just equivalent parameters?
What machine do you have anyway? Is it a big brand computer or a little-known maker? Or even home-built puter?

Thanks
Vlk
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: bbfi on November 14, 2003, 11:48:10 PM
Hi Vlk,

Here is some more info about my system and software I have runned in the past and now.

Hardware presently -  
 1 ) emachine T4150 with VC31 motherboard, Pentium 4 - 1.5 GHz, and 512mb
 2 ) ATI radeon 7000 series AGP 2x/4x with 64mb video card
 3 ) ATI-TV Wonder card
 4 ) Brother MFC 9200C Multifunction Printer, Copier, Scanner, Fax

Software running at all times presently -
 1 ) Win XP (5.1.2600) SP1
 2 ) IE Shell 6.0.2800.1106
 3 ) True Launch Bar 2.2.0.9 and Start Killer
 4 ) MyIE2 0.8.2126 Browser
 5 ) SpamPal 1.52
 6 ) PopTray 3.0
 7 ) Zone Alarm Firewall 3.7.211
 8 ) Cacheman 5.5
 9 ) SaverNow 2.4
10 ) Webshots
11 ) WinPatrol 6.0
12 ) Clipomatic
13 ) CookieWall
14 ) WordWeb
15 ) PTBSync
16 ) FinePrint 2000
17 ) BrmfRsmg.exe for Brother 9200C
18 ) Directory Opus 6.2.5.10
19 ) AVG 6.0

System Hardware in Past -
In the past I was using a NVidia video card with 32mb with the same problem occurring.

I have tried Outpost 1.0 and Sygate 5.0 and 5.1 firewalls at different times with the same problem occurring.

When I did my tests which finally showed that avast might be a trigger, I only ran the following applications -
 1 ) Outpost 1.0 firewall
 2 ) Avast 4.1
 3 ) spamilihator
 4 ) FinePrint 2000
 5 ) BrmfRsmg.exe for Brother 9200C

It didn't make any difference if I ran the minimum amount of applications or all of the above ones I use presently but with Avast instead of AVG 6.0.  After 4 to 6 hours, my problems began as Dave50 explained also.  For some reason Taikonaut was able to last for a few days before his problems occurred.   ???


Hi Dave50,

I already did one reinstall of Win XP and tried using Avast, but I don't remember if I did all the Microsoft updates before or after seeing the problems with using avast.  And I don't feel like doing it again.  It was a real time waster for me.  :P
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Dave50 on November 14, 2003, 11:57:47 PM
Vlk -- my computer is an HP Pavilion 760N, XP home (I currently have SP1 and all critical updates installed).  I've got 512mb ram, a Pentium-4 1.8 ghz processor.  I've got a 120gb hard drive with 99.48gb available.

Two of my friends have the exact same machine and none of us have any unusual programs added to the computers.  Two other friends have HP Pavilions, different models, one additional friend has a Dell Dimension 2100.

All are using avast and love it.  Of the people who have my model machine, one works with avast and Windows Updates, the other has the slowdown problem after a few hours.  The two other HP's which are different models both have the slowdown problem if they install Windows Updates.  The Dell also has the same problem.

In all cases, once the slowdown is noticed, a reboot resolves it for a few hours and then it happens again.
Like I said earlier, a clean install of XP without Windows Updates -- no slowdown.

I am aware of a similar issue regarding Windows Updates and Norton 2003 and 2004, and even with
AVG-6 Free.  So, I don't think the problem is avast .  For some reason, some computers have problems with the updates and others don't.  Earlier in this thread, Technical reports a problem as well but I don't know what machine he's using.

Dave
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Vlk on November 15, 2003, 01:07:14 AM
Thanks for the system info. I'll try to get a similar machine for testing (our QA guys wanted some new metal anyway :))

Quote
So, I don't think the problem is avast .

Maybe not, but if it happens only if avast is installed we must face it. :-\

Thanks for your help
Vlk (still in MS campus)
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Dave50 on November 15, 2003, 01:26:53 AM
Vlk -- thanks for all of your help and my appreciation to the entire avast team!  If you can solve this one,
Bill Gates should give you an award.

Dave
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Lisandro on November 15, 2003, 02:17:56 AM
Well, in my case the leak happened only in Kernel Memory Paged Pool (Memory->Pool Paged Bytes in PerfMon) and none of the processes showed any sign of leaking. I'll post also a pic of what pool i'm just talking about, I mean MS calls the same type of memory with different names in different places (VM and Private bytes etc.).

When it comes to memory logging, then at least WinXP Pro has quite nice tools for that. You should look at Control Panel -> Administrative Tools -> Performance (or Run:"perfmon") from there you can set it to log hundreds of things.

Thank you very much, Taikonaut  ;D
Sometimes we already have the 'thing' in our system but just do not use it...
I'll try to configurate the logs and see what I get.
Again, thank you. For other users, which can start Task Manager in these situations, I suggest Process Explorer (http://www.sysinternals.com/files/procexpnt.zip) from SysInternals. There is an option (column) called 'Peak Working Set' which stores the maximum level of resources utilization.

Today I had a 'freeze': after an Hibernation, Power on, 3 or 4 hours of utilization... Keyboard and monitor answers become lazy... too lazy... I shut down avast residents completely. Nothing went better... I shut down ZA, nothing... I have to restart. Now, everything ok. But I want to log the system resources to see what is going on  ;)
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Taikonaut on November 17, 2003, 04:09:11 PM
Taikonaut, why do you think the paged pool is being leaked? 37MB sounds like a very reasonable value to me... Just to make things little clearer: the paged pool, together with the non-paged pool, is basically the memory allocated by device drivers. avast indeed has a couple of device drivers, and uses some memory from these pools, but not excessive amounts (normally less then 1 megabyte).

You are right, around 40MB (sorry for not stating it clearly but the pic was taken without avas!) seems to be a normal value for my configuration (as I also stated in my first post), but with avast running I have 80MB after 2 days and it keeps rising at a rate of around 1MB/h (I'm attaching a pic of this also).

I have done now some more digging and I believe that I have found the source of the leak in my comp. I used PoolTag from www.osr.com to obtain the following data (its taken after 1 day and 22 hours of uptime):
Code: [Select]
PTAG    PAG/NON   # Allocs    # Frees  Alloc-Free       Used   Used after startup
----    -------  ---------  ---------  ----------  ---------   ------------------
Strg      PAG      7247198    6896000     351198    41506880    3028912
PcNw      NON       393121       178514     214607    12321104   12319528
Gh05      PAG      7627617    7626770       847      7959984    4572296

PS I added the last column myself it's values are taken somewhere half an hour after system startup.

It would seem that the Strg is responsible for the leak. Now I did some searches and this is what i found:
Code: [Select]
Strg - <unknown>    - Dynamic Translated stringsSo basically it appears that avast is just somehow causing this MS driver to start leaking in my system. I'm going to try running avast's resident providers one at a time to see which one causes it.

/edit: forgot the pic (http://www.tud.ttu.ee/~t990848/leak.jpg)
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Lisandro on November 19, 2003, 03:18:00 AM
So basically it appears that avast is just somehow causing this MS driver to start leaking in my system. I'm going to try running avast's resident providers one at a time to see which one causes it.

Thanks Taikonaut for your posts. They are being very usefull to get near the problem. Please, keep reporting...  ;)
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Taikonaut on November 19, 2003, 12:59:43 PM
I'm going to try running avast's resident providers one at a time to see which one causes it.
So here goes:
Code: [Select]
    Resident task    Period    Alloc-Free         Used
------------------    ------    ----------   ----------
              none    1h:20m     no change    no change
Instant Messagning    1h:00m       +15 038   +1 972 352
               P2P    1h:10m        +2 196     +272 736
     Internet Mail    1h:30m     no change    no change
   Standard Shield    1h:10m       +10 473   +1 356 872
 
Comments:
All these values are from the Strg pool tag. I hadn't installed this time the Outlook/Exchange thingy so no tests for it. Also no Instant Messagning software was running. As for P2P, then I had previously tried to see if the leak continued without eMule - it did, so eMule was running all the time here. During the Internet Mail test avast scanned a couple of emails.

Oh and this is what the Strg does (uptime 1 day) when avast is not installed:
Code: [Select]
PTAG    PAG/NON   # Allocs    # Frees  Alloc-Free       Used
----    -------  ---------  ---------  ----------  ---------
Strg      PAG       481555     481473         82        5976
Well, I can't think of anything else to check or log so I hope this helps.
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Vlk on November 19, 2003, 02:37:24 PM
Taikonaut,

all I can say is WOW, thanks for such an in-depth examination!! :)

Your posts show that you have deep technical knowledge of the system internals, and are of great help to us.

I believe the information you gave us should be sufficient to solve the problem. I'm currently in contact with some core MS developers and I hope we can together find a solution to this tricky problem.

Again, thanks a lot for your help.
Vlk
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Vlk on November 20, 2003, 04:54:54 AM
OK Guys!!
I THINK I FINALLY GOT IT!!! :D

Taikonaut, Dave50 and anyone other experiencing the same problem, please download an updated avast driver from http://www2.asw.cz/~vlk/aswMon2.sys (Windows XP only!!), place it to the \Windows\System32\Drivers directory, and reboot for the machine for the changes to take effect.

And please, let us know how it goes...
BIG THANKS TO ALL YOU GUYS WHO HELPED TO TRACK DOWN THIS ISSUE!!

It's 4:53am here, and I feel tired. Hopefully the fix will work. :)

Good night,
Vlk
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Dave50 on November 20, 2003, 12:27:02 PM
Vlk -- good morning or good night.  Don't you love all the different time zones?  ;D

It's nearly 6:30AM here and I'm on my way to a long day at work.  I will download the driver tonight and then let the computer run for several hours.  I'll report back.

Many thanks for everyone's help.  Avast is THE BEST!
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Lisandro on November 20, 2003, 01:09:40 PM
OK Guys!!
I THINK I FINALLY GOT IT!!! :D

Taikonaut, Dave50 and anyone other experiencing the same problem, please download an updated avast driver from http://www2.asw.cz/~vlk/aswMon2.sys (Windows XP only!!), place it to the \Windows\System32\Drivers directory, and reboot for the machine for the changes to take effect.

And please, let us know how it goes...
BIG THANKS TO ALL YOU GUYS WHO HELPED TO TRACK DOWN THIS ISSUE!!

It's 4:53am here, and I feel tired. Hopefully the fix will work. :)

Good night,
Vlk

Thanks Vlk for your hard work. Is it posible that this file be updated in all XP systems just asking for a program update? Seems to correct a lot of errors.
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Vlk on November 20, 2003, 01:24:38 PM
Quote
Is it posible that this file be updated in all XP systems just asking for a program update? Seems to correct a lot of errors.


Of course, if it passes all tests (both ours and yours) it will be part of the next avast update. ;)

Vlk
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Taikonaut on November 20, 2003, 03:09:16 PM
Good job Vlk, the leak seems to be gone :)
The Strg looks like this after 6 hours:
Code: [Select]
PTAG    PAG/NON   # Allocs    # Frees  Alloc-Free       Used
----    -------  ---------  ---------  ----------  ---------
Strg      PAG      1912779    1912671        108        7200
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Vlk on November 20, 2003, 03:46:36 PM
Fine; let's hope it was the real cause of the original problems (system responsiveness slowly decreasing to zero)... ;)
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: bbfi on November 20, 2003, 04:29:44 PM
VLK,

I tried the fix and so far my computer has been running for 11 hours with Avast (previous best was 8 hours with Avast).  I'll keep you posted, but so far so good.  ;D

Great work.  Hope you got some sleep last night or morning.   ;)
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Dave50 on November 20, 2003, 11:50:48 PM
Vlk -- looks good!  :)

Computer's been up and running for 3 hours now, using Kazaalite, SP-1 and all critical updates installed -- no sign of any slowdown or freeze.  No error reports -- everything working just fine.

If this driver does make it into the next program update, will that cause any difficulty for those of us who've already downloaded it?  Would the program update (I've got it set to automatic update) recognize that the file's already installed?

Great work Vlk...

Dave
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Vlk on November 21, 2003, 12:42:33 AM
Quote
If this driver does make it into the next program update, will that cause any difficulty for those of us who've already downloaded it?  Would the program update (I've got it set to automatic update) recognize that the file's already installed?

Absolutely. The updater can handle much worse situations than this! :)
It will work seemlessly...

Actually, my only concern is that with the next VPS update (probably due tomorrow), the updater will actually repair your replaced driver as well -- i.e., it will re-replace it with the original version... :-\

Watch for this - if avast prompts you for a reboot after the next VPS update, it's quite likely that this is what really happened. In this case, you'd have to download and replace the fixed file again...

Hope this helps,
Vlk
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Dave50 on November 21, 2003, 01:37:01 AM
Vlk -- I can deal with an occasional reboot (if it happens) until the new driver is included in a program update.

By the way -- I was surfing through the Dell Computer Customer Forums yesterday and in one of them, I think it was their forum for "other software", one of the posters was raving about just how good avast is!  Of course, we already know that.... ;D ;D ;D

Dave
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Dave50 on November 22, 2003, 12:17:27 AM
Vlk -- okay!  Computer's been running for more than 24 consecutive hours.  No slowdown, no freeze, no errors.
Avast is working perfectly -- no Windows Updates conflicts, no Kazaalite crashes.  Gosh -- there's nothing to complain about.  ::)

For those of you who downloaded the new driver, have you had any issues?  I think avast team can put this in the next program update.

This has been a tough one to solve and to everyone in this thread, I thank you and I'm giving everyone a karma!

Dave
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Dave50 on November 22, 2003, 12:20:41 AM
Sorry -- you've got to wait for the karmas.  Can only do one per hour.

Dave
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: bbfi on November 22, 2003, 01:08:39 AM
I was able to run for 25 consecutive hours which is plenty for me and I shut it down so I could go to bed.  Probably could have gone on for days, weeks, months, or whatever.  All I need is to be able to use it for 8 to 10 hours a day which it now does with no problems.    :D

Until the users of this forum and Vlk delved into this problem, 4 to 8 hours was max on my computer, making Avast unusable for me.  But now, I'm happy again with my Avast running like a well oiled machine for as long as I want it to.  Great going guys.  Sherlock Holmes couldn't have done better detective work.  ;D
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Lisandro on November 22, 2003, 06:27:02 PM
Vlk, everything working fine four 20 hours...
There is no trouble with hibernation or system stand-by either.
I'll report anything strange.
Again, thanks to you and Taikonaut  ;)
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Dave50 on November 23, 2003, 12:29:58 AM
Vlk -- computer's now been on a steady 36 hours.  Everything functioning perfectly.  Absolutely no sign of any errors with any program, no conflicts with Windows Updates, no slowdown or freezes.

From my perspective, the new driver is the solution and I believe the avast team can put it in the next program update.

Thanks to all...

Dave
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Lisandro on November 23, 2003, 02:20:41 AM
I have done now some more digging and I believe that I have found the source of the leak in my comp. I used PoolTag from www.osr.com

You can see more details of PoolTag here (http://www.osronline.com/article.cfm?id=98).

To download it you must first sing in OSR Online (http://www.osronline.com/custom.cfm?name=login_joinok.cfm).
Section Cookies must be allowed.

A list of utilities could be found here (http://www.osronline.com/section.cfm?id=27).
Title: Re:Windows XP problem with system resources
Post by: Vlk on November 23, 2003, 09:40:52 PM
All right folks, thanks for your affirmative answers. I'm extremely glad we were able to nail this bug down together...

Gee, I'll have to fetch some weaker hardware for this testing. All of my machines have at least a gig of RAM (with the exception of the notebook which only has 768MB ;)). And guess what - I've never experienced any memory depletion connected to avast...

Vlk