Avast WEBforum
Other => General Topics => Topic started by: REDACTED on June 17, 2015, 07:50:12 PM
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I was recently given a pending charge of $34.99 on 6/15 which later fully charged on the 16th. I don't even know why they charged me with this, I did not order anything. I did not even get a email for the receipt of whatever they charge me with. I have sent a message to Avast to see if I could fix this before I have to take this problem to my bank but so far I have not gotten a reply from Avast.
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Most likely you have the auto-renewal enabled.
You should have gotten 3 mails before the auto-renewal took place.
As has been explained many time, avast is trying to handle tickets within 10 business days.
You just have to be patience after submitting a ticket.
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How did they get your payment details if you didn't order anything ?
Did you use the 60 day trial of one of the avast products ?
If you did you would have had to complete a payment instruction, which would have been actioned after the 60 days.
You need to submit a Support Ticket - Try the following:
https://support.avast.com/Tickets/Submit/RenderForm/27/&cls02&ptf01&lic01&scr06 (https://support.avast.com/Tickets/Submit/RenderForm/27/&cls02&ptf01&lic01&scr06)
If you use the LoGIN option at the top of the Page first, you should be able to use your forum/my.avast.com login details.
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I did not get an email about the charge from Avast or from DIGITAL RIVER. The only time I ever used Digital River to order anything from them was 2 years ago about a 1 month subscription to The Secure VPN which has long been cancelled and the auto renewal was disabled as well, there was nothing on the order list besides that too.
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I have also just found a charge of NZ$39.99 on my bank statement from DRI*avast.
17th June 2015.
A google search shows its a scam.
I never ordered anything from anyone and havent used my debit card in 3 months on line.
I was hit a week ago by delta-homes but an IT friend tells me it was removed.
Cheers
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Please copy/paste the content of the mail here.
Ofcourse remove your personal details from it.
Also post the google search here where it says that it is a scam.
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Not sure what you mean by the 'mail' but here is the link to others who have had issues.
http://complaintwire.org/complaint/3TNvpZhMeAc/dri-avast-software
http://www.complaintboard.com/dri-avast-software-orderfind-com-complaints-l15105.html
http://www.complaintboard.com/dri-avast-software-orderfind-com-l10566.html
http://www.scambook.com/search/reports?search=dri+avast
Thats some.
If this is some part of Avast and not a scam, I want to know how it got my debit card numbers as I have never inputted them into Avast or authorised any payments. I have only ever used the free Avast.
cheers.
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Am guessing by 'mail' you thought I recieved an email.
I didnt.
The charge just appeared on my bank statement and had been taken out.
There was no invoice or correspondence send to my email just 'DRI*Avast' showing on my bank statement with the deduction of $39.99.
That in itself was interesting as it was NZ$.
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The post on those links mean nothing.
I only see posts from people who don't know how things are working.
Has anyone already asked Digital River ?
http://www.digitalriver.com/contact-us/
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Those posts mean a great deal as do many more.
That there are a great many people out there who have had money removed from them, which they did not authorise.
There by there is a scam.
I am getting the impression from you that there maybe a legitimate company named Digital River. (DRI) I have no idea.
What I do know is that a organisation deducted $39.99 from my bank account.
I never authorised it.
I never gave them my bank card details.
The name of the organisation showing on my bank statement was DRI*Avast.
I was scamed.
I had no idea DRI refers to Digital River until I came here so why would I contact them?
I had no means to or reason to.
Excuse me for being a little hesitant in contacting them as I dont wish to be scammed again.
How will I know if I am speaking to the legitimate DRI*Avast or the scammer DRI*Avast?
DRI*Avast is a scam and if infact there is a legitimate DRI*Avast then hopefully they are seriously looking into someone using their name and damaging their reputation. If DRI*Avast is connected to Avast, then I would hope Avast are up dating their free software to watch for this.
Thanks for your help.
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No, those post only show that people don't read/inform themselfs before doing/buying something.
And if something goes wrong in their opinion they point the finger to others while they should point it to theirselfs.
DRI = Digital River, one of the two companies that handle financial transactions for avast.
The other company is Nexway.
avast nor those two companies are scamming anyone.
I am about 100% sure that it is a legitimate transaction.
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Well we disagree and if you have input with avast or DRI, you are trying to protect them and blame the people with complaints.
Many of those are in similar boat to myself.
They have had deductions made from their accounts they claim they didnt authorise.
In my own instance.
I didnt read is right because I never ordered anything.
I have never supplied avast with my debit card details. EVER.
I am actually believing from you that Digital River is a legit company but some how another organisation has found away to access avast and my computer. Is showing themselves as avast and charging using the name DRI*Avast.
I have never given my debit card details to avast or DRI*Avast.
I have never used my debit card on this pc in 6 months and never saved my debit card details on a pc.
There are lots of people out there on the net claiming they have been charged incorrectly by an organisation showing as DRI*Avast.
I still have only free Avast and have recieved nothing for the charge.
There is a problem.
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No, I am not trying to protect them.
they claim they didnt authorise
But they never showed prove that they didn't.
There are lots of people out there on the net claiming they have been charged incorrectly by an organisation showing as DRI*Avast.
So far I never haven't seen any of them showing prove they where charged incorrectly.
Contact Digital River and ask them if they charged you and if they did for what.
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Eddy, sorry but you are so funny.
How do I show proof that I didnt authorise any charge?
I have had no contact with them.
The others will be in the same boat.
We cant show proof we never authorised a payment when we have never had any contact.
I did go to the site you put a link up to.
They want my email addy and the last 5 digits of my credit card transaction.
Forgive me but I am loathe to give those to them.
Wonder why?
There is no other way for me to contact them.
I have been to the bank and the transaction is being reversed.
As I had Free Avast and this happened on their watch, I am now considering other protection.
All this isnt really going to worry me as I will get my money back am sure.
I came here as a courtesy to inform Avast.
If they choose to ignore it and the other complaints appearing on line, that is up to them.
So please tell me how I prove I never ordered anything from them.
This should be interesting.
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No they do not want the 5 digits of your creditcard.
There are 3(!) email addresses there that you can use.
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There are 3 email addresses to their sales departments. That is sales.
The way they want you to go to complaints about a charge on your credit card takes you to where you need to input your email address and the last 5 digits of your credit card.
I actually find it interesting that they state "Do you have a question about a purchase or a charge on your credit card? "
This suggests to me, this happens a lot.
Now back to my question to you.
How do I offer proof that I never ordered anything?
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Is it really that hard for you to send a email to one of the mail addresses mentioned ?
Come on!
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Is it really that hard for you to tell me how to prove I never ordered anything?
To prove I never gave my credit card details?
Why do I need to email their sales department?
I dont wish to buy anything from them.
I posted here to make Avast aware.
They can contact me if they wish or choose to ignore it.
You are defending them and attempting to discredit those who are saying on the net there is a problem.
Clearly there is a problem. I am not the only one who has stated this.
If Avast wishes to address it or bury their head in the sand, that is up to them.
Eddy, do you represent Avast?
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The email addresses are not just their sales department.
They are for everything.
As I said before, I am not defending them.
I am trying to help you.
First thing to do is check if it was indeed Digital River or not.
If we know that, we are one step further.
So far you are only running around in circles.
Please stop doing it and contact Digital River.
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Hi racheal_storm :)
If you have never authorised a payment to Avast, or given your creditcard details, than there is no issue with Avast.
That Eddy is trying to help you, is something that you should decide you appreciate, or not.
Greetz, Red.
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@Eddy,
I am not running in circles thanks.
I came here to inform Avast and others.
I am not bothered as I will get my transaction reversed as I never authorised or gave my card details to Avast or Digital River.
I suspect it is not the real Digital River who took my money.
I have shown Avast in this thread that there is a problem.
The problem is Avast's and the reputable DRI*Avast's.
Avast's because their software protection has failed me.
Someone got into my pc, past their protection.
Not just mine but many others judging by posts on the net.
DRI*Avast need to be aware that it appears someone is using their name.
Some how likely compromised their programme as jumping in on it.
I am not contacting Digital River as I do not trust them due to this.
Understandable??
How do I prove I never gave my details to them?
@Rednose, thanks.
I have never authorised a payment to Avast.
I never gave my card details.
I dont believe I have an issue with Avast but do hope Avast realise they seem to have an issue.
Someone got past their protection to my computer.
Someone was able to access my card details, past their protection.
Someone is using the name DRI*Avast to charge peoples bank accounts and cards.
Thanks.
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Yes, you do run around in circles.
Now you are also claiming that someone got on your system.
Where is your prove of that ?
Now your are also claiming that avast protection has failed you.
Where is your prove of that ?
Stop claiming and go find out facts.
Go ask Digital River, they are a trusted company.
Stop asking how to prove things.
It is you that keeps claiming things, but so far haven't provided anything that comes even near to a prove.
Only thing I see are people who are only claiming things without showing any prove and/or not willing to investigated a couple of simple things.
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@Eddy,
The only circles I am running around are those caused by yourself.
How do I prove I never gave DRI my card details?
Am still waiting for your answer to this.
My bank account was charged $39.99 and showed by DRI*Avast.
Where did they get my card details from?
The only answer can be my pc.
That being so and the fact that I didnt voluntarily give them, it has to be someone got into my pc system. = logic.
If they did that and it was Avast then they did so by somehow going past the Avast security.
Therefore the Avast security failed to protect my pc, my information and me. = logic.
You say Digital River are a trusted company and yet in my experience they have accessed my pc, taken my card details, used them to remove money from my account which I did not authorise.
Sorry but I dont share your trust and am sure many others no longer do, judging by the others on the net who have had a similar experience to my own.
I do not know how to prove I didnt authorise a payment. You keep asking me/us to prove it but offer no advice as to how we do so.
I am not going in circles.
I am happy.
The transaction will be reversed. I will get my money back.
I came here to let Avast know they have an issue.
Someone, somehow got past Avast protection.
Someone/somehow accessed my card details and removed them past Avast security.
Someone/somehow used DRI*Avast's name to remove money from my account. Unauthorised.
Someone appears to me have used DRI*Avast to do this.
It seems to me and to many on the net that Avast and Digital River have an issue that is affecting their names.
I have informed them here and so it is up to them if they wish to investigate or do anything about this.
They are welcome to contact me and know how.
Thanks for your input.
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How do I prove I never gave DRI my card details? Am still waiting for your answer to this.
Go ask them !
Where did they get my card details from? The only answer can be my pc. That being so and the fact that I didnt voluntarily give them, it has to be someone got into my pc system. = logic.
No, it is not the only possible answer.
No that is not logic.
Logic is to go ask them and find out things.
You say Digital River are a trusted company and yet in my experience they have accessed my pc, taken my card details, used them to remove money from my account which I did not authorise.
No they did not and never will do so.
All you have done so far is giving information that very strongly suggests it was a fully legitimate transaction.
It is time for you to find out if it was or not.
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Thanks for your input Eddy.
We disagree.
As far as I am concerned the ball is in Avast's and Digital River's hands.
It was not a legitimate transaction at all.
It was not authorised by me.
I never gave my card details.
I recieved nothing for the payment.
We disagree Eddy.
It is up to Avast and Digital River, balls in their court.
Thanks.
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It was not a legitimate transaction at all.
It was not authorised by me.
I never gave my card details.
I recieved nothing for the payment.
Where is your prove ?
No, that ball is in your court.
You are the one that is claiming things.
It is you who needs to get information.
And on that note...
Since you are reluctant to check things and give information, I am done with you.
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Well sorry to say I am pleased you are done with me as your continual defense of Digital River and putting the onus of proof on myself and others, trying to put the blame on us was monotinous. You refuse to offer any suggestions as how we prove we didnt give the information but keep telling us we need to. There is no form we can pull up to show we didnt.
I am sure you are aware there is no evidence we can show to prove we didnt.
There is no transaction for this.
We can only claim we didnt.
If I paid for something, where is it? I never got anything from them.
I have explained why I will not contact Digital River - I dont trust them.
I will not give them my email or 5 numbers of my credit card.
What you refuse to accept is I think your beloved Digital River is quiet possibly not at fault.
There is some other organisation/body who have used that name, is what I feel most likely.
The onus is not on me.
I have raised an issue here, that I would expect Avast and Digital River to investigate.
The onus is on them.
We differ and thats fine.
Cheers.
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Instead of going around in circles and accomplishing nothing, simply report your problem directly to Avast:
https://support.avast.com/Tickets/Submit/RenderForm/27/&cls02&ptf01&lic01&scr06
Choose your language and submit your problem directly to Avast.
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I have raised an issue here, that I would expect Avast and Digital River to investigate.
And how do you think they can do that if you refuse to contact them and not provide any details?
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@Bob3160, thanks for your help.
I came looking at how to contact and could only find direction to the forum.
Have now filed a complaint with your help.
Appreciated.
Racheal
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In my first post I already told you submit a ticket.
And it is really easy to find where to do it: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=avast+ticket
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@Eddy, Thought you'd done with me.
Your first post....
Most likely you have the auto-renewal enabled.
You should have gotten 3 mails before the auto-renewal took place.
As has been explained many time, avast is trying to handle tickets within 10 business days.
You just have to be patience after submitting a ticket."
1/ I don't want a 'ticket' whatever that is. I don't know. I wanted to look for a complaint process and couldn't find one.
2/ Your post had no link as Bob's did.
3/ The link you posted in the last post takes me to a funny google page and then to something from Avast. No indication of a complaint process.
Bob was a great help thanks and I have now initiated a complaint process.
Thanks.
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Bob was a great help thanks and I have now initiated a complaint process.
Thanks.
Let us know once the problem has been resolved.
Thanks :)
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@Bob 3160.
Avast maintain I purchased Avast pro a year ago.
That the charge was an auto renewal.
They have agreed to refund me.
I still maintain I never purchased or recieved any product from them.
Have searched my pc and only have Avast free.
Anyway they have acted promptly, cancelled the auto payment and instigated a credit.
So I am happy.
Thanks.
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@Bob 3160.
Avast maintain I purchased Avast pro a year ago.
That the charge was an auto renewal.
They have agreed to refund me.
I still maintain I never purchased or recieved any product from them.
Have searched my pc and only have Avast free.
Anyway they have acted promptly, cancelled the auto payment and instigated a credit.
So I am happy.
Thanks.
At this point, I'm glad to hear that the misunderstanding has been resolved and your system is back to being
protected by the free version of Avast. :)
It would be nice if that renewed automatically next year. :)
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This topic is old, but I found it when I was searching for other people who have had the same thing happen to them. I downloaded the Avast Free Antivirus one year ago, and just received an email receipt from Avast letting me know that my subscription has been renewed and they are charging me $43.19. I checked the invoice and it says I have Internet Security. I did not download the internet security option, only the free antivirus. I never gave Avast my bank account information, so I don't know how they could have gotten it to charge me for this. I submitted a ticket and will get a refund, but I just wanted people to know this also happened to me.
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Reported to Avast.
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Great Day Friends,
after reading the information here and taking action, I received a message of halting the auto renewal of avast security. I am still confused of how we went from free to otherwise but have to admit to not remembering the full policy of software usage. Either way, avast responded quickly and I am left to decide what internet security software to buy. LOL Truly, in the end I will buy software. I'm still amazed, however, at my bank account being charged. With that in mind, I think I may return to purchasing said software on CD and preventing exchange of sensitive information.
Altogether, I only wanted to note avast's willingness to respond and clear up the described issue.
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The only way I can think of how avast got the bank account/credit card number is that if a person had bought a paid product in the past or has used a trial of a paid product.
It can be someone in the same household that did so.
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Well I just received my Mastercard statement with one of these charges, in this case GBP14.99, for which I have no recollection of ordering. I have been using Avast free on my pc for years without such a problem, and on my mobiles for two or three years.
I went to the Digital River link supplied here and found a special place to enquire about such charges:
https://www.findmyorder.com/sstore?Action=DisplayHomePage&SiteID=findmyor&Locale=en_US
It is described as follows:
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Important
If you have a charge on your recent billing statement with a description such as, "DRI*" "DRI" or "Digital River" and do not recognize this charge, please look up your order using your email address and last 5 digits of your credit card.
If you are unable to find your order using your email address and last 5 digits of your credit card, please look up your order using your order number and password. Forgot your password? Click here.
....................
Unfortunately the first option did not come up with a response and the second was not applicable since I did not have an order number or password. But this is obviously a problem affecting many people recognised by DR sufficiently for them to have this special page on their site.
I passed the message to their CS department through their Contact system and am awaiting their response.
I'll post it when received.
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Hi edmoore,
I couldn't find any subscription registered under your email address indeed.
As we would need some personal details in order to find the transaction, could you please open a ticket here https://support.avast.com/support/tickets/new?form=1 ?
I'll contact you once you there :)
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Sorry, Moroni, I didn't read your response. However I did get a response from the CS department who initially couldn't find the transaction but after I sent them a scan of the statement responded immediately with this:
quote
We've checked our system using the information provided in your attached billing statement and show that the charge of GBP14.99 on March 25, 2016 is for Order Number 15783849462 for the purchase of Avast Cleanup - 1
PC, 1 Year.
If this was an unauthorized charge of your account, please reply to let us know and we will initiate a refund.
unquote
I'm not sure why they want me again to tell them that this was an unauthorized charge but I have and they presumably will cancel it. My big concern is WHERE DID THEY GET MY CARD DETAILS?
I only noticed this charge by accident and I can imagine that the proportion of people who would ignore a small charge like this would be high. That means that Avast could be holding a lot of cash to which they are not entitled. Is anyone investigating this?
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I only noticed this charge by accident and I can imagine that the proportion of people who would ignore a small charge like this would be high. That means that Avast could be holding a lot of cash to which they are not entitled. Is anyone investigating this?
Nope. It means that somebody got access to your credit card details and make an order using it.
Are you sure you don't recognize the details of the person who purchased this order?
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Well, Moroni, that's an interesting suggestion but, to me, seems far-fetched. Someone obtains the details of my credit card and then profits by buying an Avast product for less than $20? Sorry, don't buy that.
Also do not have any details of the "person" that made the charge, only of the account that charged me, i.e. Dri Avast.
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Well, Moroni, that's an interesting suggestion but, to me, seems far-fetched. Someone obtains the details of my credit card and then profits by buying an Avast product for less than $20? Sorry, don't buy that.
Also do not have any details of the "person" that made the charge, only of the account that charged me, i.e. Dri Avast.
Marianne T_____
Voula, GR
marianne.t_____@gmail.com
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Great. Finally I get details of the person who made the order on my card. It's my wife!
Too bad that my earlier enquiries did not mention this.
Sorry for not knowing but this could have been settled with my first request.
All the best
Ed
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Glad that we finally figured this out :)
For the records, you only contacted our distributor (Digital River) and not us (Avast Software) using the link I posted before. Anyhow, I checked that your refund is being processed.
Cheers!
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Keep avast, replace the wife ;D
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Keep avast, replace the wife ;D
;D 8)
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Got charged $109US out of the blue. Never heard of this company. never had dealings directly or indirectly. My Canadian cc company called them a FRAUD. Said they had heard about them. Check your credit card statement diligently. They may appear out of the blue. Avast reimbursed my account they next day, however, with the buying and selling US $s I lost a bit on exchange. That ain't the point...where do they come off debiting my cc account???????!!!!!
Watch them ...they appear as DRI AVAST on your statement
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Your Canadian CC company is very wrong.
DRI AVAST means the product/subscription is from avast and Digital River handles the payment.
If your CC company is calling them a fraud, it is time to dump that CC company as they clearly have no clue what they are talking about.
Digital River is a fully legitimate payment processing company that handles financial transactions for a lot of other companies.
Some of their clients (not limited to) :
- avast
- Kaspersky
- Adobe
- HTC
- Bosch
- Vistaprint
- Logitech
- Microsoft
You might not recall it, but it is very likely the payment processor that you have used when buying a subscription for one or more avast products.
What (almost certainly) happened is that auto-renewal took place because you did not disabled it.
As has been explained numerous of times on this webboard, before the auto-renewal takes place you receive 3(!) mails from avast telling you about it and giving you enough time to disable/stop the auto-renewal.
If you don't do so, it will take place and you will get charged.
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Got charged $109US out of the blue. Never heard of this company. never had dealings directly or indirectly. My Canadian cc company called them a FRAUD. Said they had heard about them. Check your credit card statement diligently. They may appear out of the blue. Avast reimbursed my account they next day, however, with the buying and selling US $s I lost a bit on exchange. That ain't the point...where do they come off debiting my cc account? ??? ??? !!!!!
Watch them ...they appear as DRI AVAST on your statement
Maybe you've heard of Digital River ???
https://www.avast.com/faq.php?article=AVKB24
Sounds like your auto renewal kicked in.
If it's been less than trial period, you can still cancell:
https://support.avast.com/support/tickets/new?form=2
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Got charged $109US out of the blue. Never heard of this company. never had dealings directly or indirectly. My Canadian cc company called them a FRAUD. Said they had heard about them. Check your credit card statement diligently. They may appear out of the blue. Avast reimbursed my account they next day, however, with the buying and selling US $s I lost a bit on exchange. That ain't the point...where do they come off debiting my cc account???????!!!!!
Watch them ...they appear as DRI AVAST on your statement
Hi Lance26,
Could you please send us the details about this to https://support.avast.com/support/tickets/new?form=1
We will investigate it :)
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I had 4 separate rapid-fire charges from DRI for $59.99 on my CC last night at about 1:00 am EST. Thankfully they were all denied by my CC company because of suspected unauthorized activity. This morning I had to confirm that they were indeed unauthorized and my CC company cancelled my card and is sending a new one.
I have no idea how Avast or DRI got my CC info. While I've used the free version of Avast for years, I never remember giving them my info, especially with this card that is less than a year old. This is very unfortunate because I truly love Avast, but what the heck man? Anyway, I Googled to see if other people were experiencing a similar problem and sure enough I found this thread. So I thought I'd come and share my unfortunate experience.
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Only way to know your creditcard details is if you have provided them or if your creditcard account is/was compromised (and perhaps even abused).
It can be you had a trial once and provided the details at that time.
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5900 Scimming websites
https://gwillem.gitlab.io/2016/10/11/5900-online-stores-found-skimming/
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I have the same problem.I was charged in my credit card automaticallyby AVAST SOFTW SHANNON, CO. IE ,though I hadn't submitted any demand for automatic renewal.I consider this a malicious act against my accounts.In case this message doesn't appear in the public avast forum,please guide me via forum,how can I submit directly to the forum.I've already informed via a specific link that the avast team has sent why i do not want them to renew my paid subscription.
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I have the same problem.I was charged in my credit card automaticallyby AVAST SOFTW SHANNON, CO. IE ,though I hadn't submitted any demand for automatic renewal.I consider this a malicious act against my accounts.In case this message doesn't appear in the public avast forum,please guide me via forum,how can I submit directly to the forum.I've already informed via a specific link that the avast team has sent why i do not want them to renew my paid subscription.
Auto renewal is checked by default. You could have unchecked it when you installed the product. You can also cancel it at any time prior to it happening.
At this point the best thing to do is to contact avast directly and explain your problem: https://support.avast.com/support/tickets/new?form=3
Once you receive your support ticket #, post it here and we'll try to elevate your request.
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I was recently given a pending charge of $34.99 on 6/15 which later fully charged on the 16th. I don't even know why they charged me with this, I did not order anything. I did not even get a email for the receipt of whatever they charge me with. I have sent a message to Avast to see if I could fix this before I have to take this problem to my bank but so far I have not gotten a reply from Avast.
me too, i have to cancell my credit card to stop them from charging
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No, you don't.
Al you have to do is disabling the auto-renewal as has been explained many times already in this and other threads.
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I am also being charged a 38.00 fee for DRI*Avast Software that I did not authorize! Eddy......why are you so defensive if no one on here speaks the truth? How are so many people being charged without their knowledge or authorization? This is a definite scam!!!! You have my checking account information.....not even my credit card or debit card.....how did you get my checking account info and why are you charging me for this? All your excuses to the other people on this forum is really lame. You sound like a lying child whistling in the dark trying to pretend that we are ALL idiots! I plan on letting people everywhere know about your scam on as many websites as I can.....and on as many search engines as I can. This is NOT right.
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How are so many people being charged without their knowledge or authorization?
Not reading properly what is on their screen when ordering is the most common cause.
It depends on the country but in most ones automatic renewal (aka continues protection) is enabled by default.
If people don't uncheck it, they they shouldn't say the have never given permission because they did gave permission for it.
Fact is that if automatic renewal is enabled, people will be charge around the time their subscription ends.
It also happens that someone else in the household has ordered avast and forgot to tell the other(s) about it.
how did you get my checking account info and why are you charging me for this?
I don't have your info as I do not work avast nor any of the payment processors they are using.
But it is real easy, you or someone else gave it to them.
As far as I know they are not clairvoyance or something like that.
avast nor any of the payment processors they are using is scam.
If you believe otherwise, go to the police and report it but don't look surprised if they say that you filed a false report.
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Arguing isn't going to solve or satisfy anyone.
follow the directions outlined here:
https://forum.avast.com/index.php?topic=172436.msg1358983#msg1358983