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Consumer Products => Avast Free Antivirus / Premium Security (legacy Pro Antivirus, Internet Security, Premier) => Topic started by: Lisandro on November 17, 2003, 01:37:47 AM

Title: Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: Lisandro on November 17, 2003, 01:37:47 AM
I'll edit this post as soon as posible...
I'm in danger  >:(

I decided to have a look on Kerio 4.0.7.

I tryed to install Kerio without desinstalling ZoneAlarm.
The setup alert me of an incompatibility.
I give up. Desinstall ZoneAlarm, Boot and install Kerio 4.0.7.

On the next boot I receive an error message (The service could not be connected or something like this).
avast! freezes (icon stop to swirl).

I manually start the Kerio service and firewall seemed to work.
Each 5 seconds the firewall ask me for rights to access the Internet. I was calm and answering with logic...

Suddenly, the system starts to SHUTDOWN  :o
I have indeed a shortcut on keyboard to do so, but I have to use both hands (Ctlr+Alt+Page down) and my hand was in the mouse!

The shutdown was forced, I lost my work  >:(
Next boot, Kerio alert the same service trouble described above.

I GIVE UP!!!  >:(

Roxio GoBack save my day again  8)

I know it could be a trouble about ZoneAlarm desinstallation but nothing was alerted or adviced before Kerio start to mess my system. I know this is a good firewall (many high users of avast! forum recommended it in the past). But not for me.

I went back to my beloved ZoneAlarm  ;D

Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: enchanter on November 17, 2003, 03:53:35 AM
Hmm... I hadn't actually kept up with Kerio's new releases. I still use Kerio PF 2.1.5. It's simple, flexible and stable. For me the best part is that it's only a packet filtering firewall.

It looks like they've now gone down the bloatware road by making PF an all-in-one application. This annoys me no end. It's a firewall... it's NOT an ad-blocker, cookie filter etc etc!!!

It also looks like they've tried to make it more accessible to the "average" user with their "permit/ask/deny" table (similar to ZoneAlarm). It was precisely to get away from that over-simplicity that I went for Kerio in the first place. They've left in the ability to specify more complex packet filter rules, but I fear that in adding so much extra functionality it's going to take a while before the whole thing becomes stable enough to use.

I'd recommend trying to find a copy of 2.1.5 if you really want to use Kerio PF. Otherwise you'll probably have a wait for a few more revisions of the 4 series in order for it to settle down.
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: Lisandro on November 17, 2003, 03:57:59 AM
Hmm... I hadn't actually kept up with Kerio's new releases. I still use Kerio PF 2.1.5. It's simple, flexible and stable. For me the best part is that it's only a packet filtering firewall.

It looks like they've now gone down the bloatware road by making PF an all-in-one application. This annoys me no end. It's a firewall... it's NOT an ad-blocker, cookie filter etc etc!!!

It also looks like they've tried to make it more accessible to the "average" user with their "permit/ask/deny" table (similar to ZoneAlarm). It was precisely to get away from that over-simplicity that I went for Kerio in the first place. They've left in the ability to specify more complex packet filter rules, but I fear that in adding so much extra functionality it's going to take a while before the whole thing becomes stable enough to use.

I'd recommend trying to find a copy of 2.1.5 if you really want to use Kerio PF. Otherwise you'll probably have a wait for a few more revisions of the 4 series in order for it to settle down.

Maybe someday I will install my 'old' 2.1.5 setup file, which I still have in my HDD. Thanks for your reply. Now, ZoneAlarm starts to ask for 'server' rights and 'accept connections from the Internet'. I have this trouble in the past but I did not remember how I get out from it  :'(
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: doggeral on November 17, 2003, 03:58:28 AM
You just experienced one of the many issues that keeps people on 2.1.5 which by comparison is way more complicated to use seemingly random errors across users.   I have many comments on other security issues, but I think the blue screen says it all.  

Don't get me wrong Kerio 4 might one day be good, but right now its not good enough to move from your other firewall.

Not to mention the features better be pretty darn good to get me to commit more than the 4 megs required by kerio 2 in my config.
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: .: Mac :. on November 17, 2003, 04:01:05 AM
I recommend BlackICE PC Protection I have ran it for 5 years and no Problems  ;D $40 to buy $20 a year renewal (or get from kazaa for free I pay because it so good)
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: shgoh on November 17, 2003, 04:23:12 AM
i've tried kerio version 4 too....it really suxzz.. >:(

not recommended....

by the way...where can i get kerio version 2?... ;D
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: enchanter on November 17, 2003, 04:29:01 AM
by the way...where can i get kerio version 2?... ;D

It's still available on their download site: http://www.kerio.com/dwn/kpf/ (http://www.kerio.com/dwn/kpf/)

Or, more specifically, http://www.kerio.com/dwn/kpf/kerio-pf-2.1.5-en-win.exe (http://www.kerio.com/dwn/kpf/kerio-pf-2.1.5-en-win.exe)
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: shgoh on November 17, 2003, 04:31:49 AM
Quote
It's still available on their download site: http://www.kerio.com/dwn/kpf2-en-win.exe (http://www.kerio.com/dwn/kpf2-en-win.exe)

oic...thks mate....i didn't notice it... ;D
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: bbfi on November 17, 2003, 04:57:19 AM
Technical,

I tried Kerio 4.0.7 last week.  Every half hour or so, it would give me an error message "can't contact server".  Couldn't connect to internet or get email.  Would have to reboot.  I went to Kerio's forums and found this to be a major bug.  See http://forums.kerio.com/index.php?t=msg&th=21&start=0&S=42dbe03cfcff87ce518b16cf460ec5c8 (http://forums.kerio.com/index.php?t=msg&th=21&start=0&S=42dbe03cfcff87ce518b16cf460ec5c8), http://forums.kerio.com/index.php?t=msg&th=59&start=0&S=42dbe03cfcff87ce518b16cf460ec5c8 (http://forums.kerio.com/index.php?t=msg&th=59&start=0&S=42dbe03cfcff87ce518b16cf460ec5c8), and http://forums.kerio.com/index.php?t=msg&th=48&start=0&S=42dbe03cfcff87ce518b16cf460ec5c8 (http://forums.kerio.com/index.php?t=msg&th=48&start=0&S=42dbe03cfcff87ce518b16cf460ec5c8).   >:(

I also went back to Zone Alarm.   ;)
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: beast99 on November 17, 2003, 06:39:07 AM
Kerio 4.07 isn't any good at all.  Tiny 5.1.1242 is excellent, but it isn't free, only runs on XP/2000 & it's not for beginners.  Trying it out as a replacement for  
Kerio 2.1.5 which will soon be outdated.
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: .: Mac :. on November 17, 2003, 10:12:23 PM
Like i said before will someone else try blackice?
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: Lisandro on November 19, 2003, 02:21:39 AM
Technical,

I tried Kerio 4.0.7 last week.  Every half hour or so, it would give me an error message "can't contact server".  Couldn't connect to internet or get email.  Would have to reboot.  I went to Kerio's forums and found this to be a major bug.  See http://forums.kerio.com/index.php?t=msg&th=21&start=0&S=42dbe03cfcff87ce518b16cf460ec5c8 (http://forums.kerio.com/index.php?t=msg&th=21&start=0&S=42dbe03cfcff87ce518b16cf460ec5c8), http://forums.kerio.com/index.php?t=msg&th=59&start=0&S=42dbe03cfcff87ce518b16cf460ec5c8 (http://forums.kerio.com/index.php?t=msg&th=59&start=0&S=42dbe03cfcff87ce518b16cf460ec5c8), and http://forums.kerio.com/index.php?t=msg&th=48&start=0&S=42dbe03cfcff87ce518b16cf460ec5c8 (http://forums.kerio.com/index.php?t=msg&th=48&start=0&S=42dbe03cfcff87ce518b16cf460ec5c8).   >:(

I also went back to Zone Alarm.   ;)

Thanks bbfi. I applaud you for your effort... Anyway I won't go to Kerio's forum and try to solve the 'major bugs' of it. I won't try Kerio 2.1.5 anyway. Just listen what beast99 said: it will be outdated soon. I won't try a software that I know it's now, in the present, a bloatware (a related post is here (http://www.avast.com/forum/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=1703;start=30#msg11118). A firewall all-in-one application: an ad-blocker, cookie filter, trojan detector and so on... Sorry, I won't wast my time. What will happen if some thread must be updated? Will I have to get version 4.0.7 or latter again? Definitively, not. I went back to ZoneAlarm like you  ;)
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: .: Mac :. on November 19, 2003, 03:07:36 AM
black ice has a firewall and an IDS. it has application protection like any other firewall but you can choose not to install it.
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: doggeral on November 19, 2003, 05:10:23 AM
Quote
I won't try Kerio 2.1.5 anyway. Just listen what beast99 said: it will be outdated soon.

I'm not trying to say you should try it and I'm not recommending any firewall at all here.   What I will say though is that the way the firewalls work mean a lot.   Firewalls that rely on IDS or Application rules can generally be more prone to becoming out dated.   But if you are talking about strict port blocking.   That doesn't change a whole lot no matter what the exploit.   As long as the firewall has the ability to control the ports on a given OS it is capable of doing its job.   It all becomes a different story when you move to a newer version of windows, but this is not like an antivirus or spyware detection.  If an application can block traffic on port 135 in windows xp today it can do it 5 years from now.   When you start talking about detecting bad traffic is where you start opening a new bag of worms.  

Point being for me looking at firewalls I like to find out what options they hide from me for simplicity.  But again this is not me trying to advocate any firewall, but me simply saying that straight firewalls don't become dated as fast as things the rely on scanning or detecting.    So believe or dis-believe its my 2 cents.
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: bbfi on November 19, 2003, 06:18:02 AM
Quote
Thanks bbfi. I applaud you for your effort...
My pleasure.  It seems that a lot of people are getting ticked off with Kerio for this buggy firewall 4.0.7 they produced.  Some people have comed up with work-arounds, but so far the company is silent about this problem.   >:(

I came upon the NTFS Forum (from Kerio's Forum) which lead me to the following info.  Computer Associates are offering the eTrust EZ Armor Security Suite http://www.my-etrust.com/microsoft/index.cfm? (http://www.my-etrust.com/microsoft/index.cfm?) for FREE for 1 year to Microsoft users.  I decided to give it a try since it is free for a year.   :)

The firewall appears to be Zone Alarm Pro 3.7.211 but is called EZ Firewall.  The Anti Virus is eTrust EZ Antivirus Personal Edition.  Both are working fine on my system and use very few system resources (16,352K for the firewall and TrueVector service and 2,132K for the Anti Virus).   :D

I tried quite a few of the sites for port scans, etc. with all perfect results with few modifications to the firewall.  The Anti Virus appears to work as well as AVG 6 Free and seems to be better with its alerts.  (I still think that Avast has the best email alerts and checking around).   ;)

So I will use this setup and see what happens.  So far I am impressed.  And by the way, EZ Firewall works with VisualZone for displaying detailed information about attacks (if you are into that sort of thing).  If you don't have VisualZone, it can be downloaded for free at http://www.visualizesoftware.com/ (http://www.visualizesoftware.com/).   ;D
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: Waldo on November 19, 2003, 10:35:40 AM
Like i said before will someone else try blackice?

I tried Blackice before, and I didn't like it. why ?

negative :

-It offers no outbound protection
-If a trojan is already on your system when installing blackice, your doomed, as it won't checks for outgoing connections.
-All programs that are already on your pc (trusted) have server rights to the internet by default.
-It fails ALL leaktests availble on the internet.

Pro :

-It does gives full stealth on Gibson's shieldsUp, and Pcflank test.
-It has a small but good intrusion detection system.

Kind regards

Waldo
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: Lisandro on November 19, 2003, 12:07:56 PM
I agree with you doggeral, and believe in your statements about firewall. Anyway, I don't like a software that I cannot update...  ;D

Thank, you bbfi, I use VisualZone too with Zone Alarm. I think EZ Trust just one year for free (with firewall and antivirus tools) won't be suitable for those ones who believe in layered defense: one application for each one defense need. Anyway, another antivirus (resident) with avast! will bring me trouble.  ;D
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: bbfi on November 19, 2003, 04:46:18 PM
Technical,

Quote
I think EZ Trust just one year for free (with firewall and antivirus tools) won't be suitable for those ones who believe in layered defense: one application for each one defense need.
The installation for EZ Armor allows you to install both or either the Firewall or Virus Checker.  They are separate applications.  Since EZ Firewall is the same as Zone Alarm Pro, you'll get to use it for free for one year.  Then you can use your favorite Anti Virus such as Avast along with it.   ;)
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: Shutterbug on November 21, 2003, 05:40:51 PM
In reading this thread I saw comments about BlackIce that I thought needed some warnings in return, but Waldo beat me to it.  It's good to know people here are already aware of Steve Gibson's site.  I get wary of "security experts" who don't.  ;)

For those who aren't familiar with Steve Gibson, visit http://grc.com.  It isn't the easiest site to navigate on the 'net, but its tools will do the best job of testing your system's security I've seen anywhere outside of hiring a consultant.  And even the consultant may hit his site for a test.
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: .: Mac :. on November 21, 2003, 09:34:44 PM
i have tested black ice it passed all tests
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: Shutterbug on November 22, 2003, 08:59:43 PM
Did it?  On GRC.com's ShieldsUp and LeakTest?  If so, it must be a later version of BlackIce than I tested.  And if so, then I applaud BlackIce finally fixing those holes they were leaving open on unaware customer systems.

I'm a staunch ZoneAlarm user, and it has saved me from many a problem.  I've only had one virus since installing ZA which I let through thanks to letting my guard down by leaving Bypass turned on too long one day in Proxomitron, so a popup dropped the spyware on me.  But those moments are what Avast is for.  :D

Am I trying to convince people to switch?  Well, a little.  My main focus is to convince people to test their systems for security holes, which keeps everyone else a little safer as a result.  But if more users help support ZA now so that future versions will be just as strong, all the better.    :)
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: .: Mac :. on November 24, 2003, 03:20:34 AM
shutterbug blackICE did fix the software in the latest version ISS has improved the software form when network ICE owned it  ;)
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: .: Mac :. on November 26, 2003, 02:00:41 AM
FYI kerio 4.0.8 is now avaliable I tested it still the same problems :(
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: Lisandro on November 26, 2003, 02:27:55 AM
FYI kerio 4.0.8 is now avaliable I tested it still the same problems :(

I'm so glad to turn back into my beloved ZoneAlarm  ;D
Thanks Mac for your advice... Kerio becomes a bloatware  :'(
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: bbfi on November 26, 2003, 06:37:17 PM
Just browsed over to the Kerio forum.  Seems like more and more bugs are showing up since Version 4.0.8.   >:(

Quote
I'm so glad to turn back into my beloved ZoneAlarm  ;D

Amen!  Me too.  (Since EZ Firewall is Zone Alarm Pro)   ;D
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: Lisandro on December 07, 2003, 06:56:30 PM
avast! team, what is avast! for Kerio? (http://www.avast.com/i_idt_161.html)

Why nobody said anything about the 4.0.7 version and avast!?  :(
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: .: Mac :. on December 07, 2003, 10:23:24 PM
it provides virus scanning for Kerio WinRoute Firewall and Kerio Mail Server. Both of wich I would never use on our servers here at macworld because the personal firewall spoiled the kerio name
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: Lisandro on December 07, 2003, 10:34:43 PM
it provides virus scanning for Kerio WinRoute Firewall and Kerio Mail Server. Both of wich I would never use on our servers here at macworld because the personal firewall spoiled the kerio name

Thanks Mac... I really want some information from avast! team... Kerio becomes a bloatware and avast! is traveling 'side by side' of it... I just want to know if we are in danger  :-\
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: denro on December 08, 2003, 04:19:03 AM
Kerio 4.07 isn't any good at all... Kerio 2.1.5 which will soon be outdated.

What is the information on Kerio 2.1.5 becoming outdated.  Is it set to stop working on a certain date or a certain time after downloading?  Can someone expand on this?  I run Kerio 2.1.5 with Avast 4.1 Home and the combination works great.  I would hate to lose one part of this combo.  TIA
-- denro
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: Lisandro on December 08, 2003, 12:54:07 PM
Kerio 4.07 isn't any good at all... Kerio 2.1.5 which will soon be outdated.

What is the information on Kerio 2.1.5 becoming outdated.  Is it set to stop working on a certain date or a certain time after downloading?  Can someone expand on this?  I run Kerio 2.1.5 with Avast 4.1 Home and the combination works great.  I would hate to lose one part of this combo.  TIA
-- denro

No, Denro, the Kerio 2.1.5 won´t stop working... I think that beast99 was just trying to say that the new versions are poor and it´s not confortable have a non-updatable software in your system. For solutions, Techie suggested Sygate Personal Firewall and I, ZoneAlarm.
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: Vlk on December 08, 2003, 02:56:56 PM
Quote
it provides virus scanning for Kerio WinRoute Firewall and Kerio Mail Server. Both of wich I would never use on our servers here at macworld because the personal firewall spoiled the kerio name


I believe there is no need to be so stringent -- the fact that KPF 4.x is not yet as good as its predecessors doesn't change anything on the fact that both Kerio Mail Server and Kerio WinRoute Firewall are (according to us) quality products that deserve attention... ;)

Vlk
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: .: Mac :. on December 08, 2003, 09:38:27 PM
I run real secure desktop protector on the clients ( By ISS who make BlackICE) and BlackICE server protection on the servers
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: denro on December 09, 2003, 12:45:37 AM
Kerio 2.1.5 won´t stop working... I think that beast99 was just trying to say that the new versions are poor and it´s not confortable have a non-updatable software in your system. For solutions, Techie suggested Sygate Personal Firewall and I, ZoneAlarm.

Good to hear that Kerio 2.1.5 doesn't expire.  The engine in that version of Kerio, which came originally from Tiny Personal Firewall, is very stable and thoroughly debugged.  It should not be necessary to update it until at least the next version of Windows.  For now, although not easy to get to from the Kerio web page, Kerio still has the version available at:

http://www.kerio.com/dwn/kpf/kerio-pf-2.1.5-en-win.exe

and I assume that others will make this freeware version available if Kerio pulls the link.  It is an outstanding firewall and works great with Avast
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: Vlk on December 09, 2003, 10:48:38 AM
Quote
The engine in that version of Kerio, which came originally from Tiny Personal Firewall, is very stable and thoroughly debugged.


Forgive my curiousity, but what exactly do you mean by 'very stable and thoroughly debugged'? That it does what it is expected to do (and does not crash)? What's so different about 4.0x?

Thanks
Vlk
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: denro on December 09, 2003, 06:55:24 PM
Quote
The engine in that version of Kerio, which came originally from Tiny Personal Firewall, is very stable and thoroughly debugged.


Forgive my curiousity, but what exactly do you mean by 'very stable and thoroughly debugged'? That it does what it is expected to do (and does not crash)? What's so different about 4.0x?


I may be wrong, but I have seen reports in the alt.comp.anti-virus newsgroup that some features in the new version of Kerio cease to work after a period if you don't upgrade to the paid version.  The comment about the older version of Kerio being stable was to say that it appears to be bug free and will not need active Kerio support for bug fixes and upgrades.
Title: Re:Deeply disapointed of Kerio 4.0.7
Post by: Lisandro on December 10, 2003, 01:21:29 AM
I may be wrong, but I have seen reports in the alt.comp.anti-virus newsgroup that some features in the new version of Kerio cease to work after a period if you don't upgrade to the paid version.  The comment about the older version of Kerio being stable was to say that it appears to be bug free and will not need active Kerio support for bug fixes and upgrades.

In my opinion, you're right. Earlier versions of Kerio were better than the 4 that join unsucessfull a lot of features and become a bloatware...  :'(
Anyway, as Vlk said, both Kerio Mail Server and Kerio WinRoute Firewall are quality products that deserve attention... I can't say anything about them because I don't know about them  ;)