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Other => General Topics => Topic started by: bob3160 on September 08, 2006, 03:07:16 PM
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Chris Pirillo has an interesting article on this subject.
Since a lot of experts feel that Vista isn't really all it could have been
in light of the length of time it's taken Microsoft to put it together.
A great alternative would be the ability to dual boot between OSX and Vista.
Vista - it’s still the same ol’ Windows with a new look to it.
They could have sandboxed all legacy code into virtual machines much like Apple did with their legacy applications.
It was painful for a while, but so was the transition between 16-bit and 32-bit code if you remember!
Oh, and Vista’s not faring well with the 64-bit stuff according to reports -
so even this Windows situation is going to get worse before it comes close to getting better.
Since OSX now operates on an Intel chip, this is a great Idea and would do wonders to make
Apple a major contender in the OS market.
Apple is also about ready to release their next upgrade called Leopard (http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,39024105,39280574,00.htm)
I would much rather spend money for adding Dual Boot capability to OSX or Leopard than spend it
to upgrade to a still developing and unfinished Vista.
Chris's full article can be found at:
http://channels.lockergnome.com:80/windows/archives/20060907_microsoft_vs_apple.phtml
What are your thoughts on this opportunity to push for an Apple - Microsoft Computer ?
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A great alternative would be the ability to dual boot between OSX and Vista.
Since OSX now operates on an Intel chip
Well, is there any possibility of testing OSX in a VMWare environment...?
I'll love if Mac give me a license to test it ;D ;)
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If i could dual boot MacOS & Windows on my comp i would use windows only for gaming and nothing else... For serious work(graphics, web design, programming etc.) MacOS would be sooooooo nice.
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It was a good article and since it comes in the LockerGnome 'Windows Fanatics' newsletter a bit revolutionary, especially when he is talking about his wife moving to it an he is likely to follow.
There have also been a number of Comments on disappointment in Vista in the newsletter and that may be a driving force towards Apple.
But me I doubt I will make the switch, it isn't just the cost of Apple systems, which are coming down in price since the move to Intel chips (they are still more expensive than other systems). What concerns me more is the cost of replacement software or it will be a little sparse in my Mac world.
Some will say you can still use your Windows software with dual boot, but to me that kind of defeats the object of making the switch to a Mac only to continue to use windows ???
So we have to decide why it is that we want to move to a Mac for, if it is for a more stable, secure or better Operating System (OS X Tiger or the new Leopard) than XP or possibly Vista, then it doesn't make sense to continue dual booting into Windows. Gaming as has been mentioned is one of the areas that the Mac couldn't compete and give reason to dual boot or purchase of an Xbox ;D ;D
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If you want to dual boot Windows and mac OS X you can. Just buy a mac and download bootcamp.
Tech, OS X looks for a TPM chip on the motherboard to verify it is being installed on a Mac if it does not find it it will not install
it isn't just the cost of Apple systems, which are coming down in price since the move to Intel chips (they are still more expensive than other systems).
If you Build your own PC then yes the mac is still More expensive. However If you configure two systems equally then the Mac is even if not a little less expensive (or a lot less if you look at the link below)
http://www.macworld.com/2006/08/features/macproprice/index.php
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Mac,
If you want to dual boot Windows and mac OS X you can. Just buy a mac and download bootcamp.
Why doesn't Apple get smart and make something like that for those of us that already have the right hardware
but are currently using a Microsoft operating system like XP.
You'll never get me to buy a Mack and throw what I've already invested in into the garbage.
I would however spend money on converting my current system to run both operating systems.
I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels that way. :)
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If i could dual boot MacOS & Windows on my comp i would use windows only for gaming and nothing else... For serious work(graphics, web design, programming etc.) MacOS would be sooooooo nice.
Miha, Apple computers are kind of standard in pre-print and printing design industry, but when it comes to web design, especially multimedia nothing can be compared to PCs. It is well known that Apple machines have unbelievable problems with playing Flash content. It's so much slower and slugish even on G5s and even on these new babies like MacBook and MacBook Pro (dual Intel processors). I checked some stuff on old Celeron 533 Mhz and it works much faster than on any of those above mentioned Apple machines, which is really sad.
http://www.kaourantin.net/2005/07/why-does-flash-player-8-on-mac-perform.html
Read some of those reviews at the bottom... Mac's simply can't run Flash, that's the problem... some of those reviewers are going back to PCs because they do Flash for a living and they can not do that on Apple machines as they can do that on PCs. There are some comments like that inside this quote:
Some quoted... list goes on and on :))))
>> welly said...
>> The flash player 8.0.5.0 is so slow on mac i cant believe you can say
>> anything has been improved , i can run animations on a celeron 333 faster
>> on Fp7 than I can on an imac g5 , it is embarassing , using safari on mac
>> and firefox on pc btw , i dont know technical details i think this says
>> it more http://www.powerflasher.de/bench/res.php macs are way down the
>> list , but i do know slow and the mac performance sucks
>>
>> Tuesday, August 16, 2005 3:53:20 PM
>>
>> Anonymous said...
>>
>> You seem to be very excited about the open GL addition, yet the macs
>> performance - even with the open GL addition, performs like a snail in
>> comparrison to even an old PC.
>>
>>
>>
>> I can crunch video at a blistering rate and run photoshop smoothly on
>> my G5, but my 350MHZ dusty compaq can tear through even simple flash
>> animations like 10 times faster. It's truly embarrassing.
>>
>>
>>
>> ekko said...
>>
>> I hate to agree to this, but it's true. The Flash player for both
>> Firefox and Safari are completely inferior to the PC Flash Player. I've
>> been designing and programming in Flash for years and I've worked on both
>> platforms and though I'd love to stay with apple for many reasons, but I
>> have to go back to PC for this reason alone.
>>
>>
>> Anonymous said...
>>
>> It is February 2006 and just last sunday I went to the Apple Store in
>> my local mall. They had an internet connection on all the latest dual
>> core, dual cpu Macs with gobs of ram, and 2Gighz per cpu, and good 3D
>> video cards, the latest upgrade patches to Safari and OSX. I proceeded to
>> test cool Flash websites that run fast on any PC, even POS old Celerons
>> from 1999...OMG... The latest and greatest, most powerful Macs ever built
>> with the new Intel CPU's are still pathetic at playing Flash!! I think
>> this goes to show that even with the same CPU, same RAM, same video card,
>> that there is still yet 1 last thing slowing down all Macs... and that is
>> the OS! I bet if someone were able to hook up the Mac Intel CPU and run
>> it on WindowsXP or hell even Windows95, it would run circles around any
>> version of Mac OS when comparing Flash playback of the same flash movie.
>> Apple better start using WinXP or Vista for the next upgrade to finally
>> bring Macs into the PC realm of web browsing without slow/choppy
>> performance..
I've got a chance to try some Flash sites on G5 as well as on MacBook Pro in Best buy... incredibly slow... not just that it's not smooth, but it was horrible... literally frame by frame animation. I would go crazy if I have to wait that long when I'm testing my Flash work. PCs are smooth and everything works perfectly, and that is most likely because of the way PCs deals with DirectX the way they do.
EDIT: and we have to remember... Flash is not Macromedia anymore, it is ADOBE (!), so they really need to do something regarding this if they want everything to go back to normal.
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If you want to dual boot Windows and mac OS X you can. Just buy a mac and download bootcamp.
Tech, OS X looks for a TPM chip on the motherboard to verify it is being installed on a Mac if it does not find it it will not install
it isn't just the cost of Apple systems, which are coming down in price since the move to Intel chips (they are still more expensive than other systems).
If you Build your own PC then yes the mac is still More expensive. However If you configure two systems equally then the Mac is even if not a little less expensive (or a lot less if you look at the link below)
http://www.macworld.com/2006/08/features/macproprice/index.php
I think M2 is saying dual boot on his existing system, not by a Mac, but we know Apple won't let that happen (as you mention with the TMP chip). If people could buy and install OS X and install that on their existing system no one (or many less) would be buying the Macs, Apple does it to protect their sales.
Even systems bought of the shelf are cheaper than Macs not just self build, hell the want £399 for a Mac Mini single core and £529 for a dual core chip in the UK. You want to see what I can buy off the shelf for £529 or a Dell system (God forbid) for that money. A basic Mac Book here is around £749, iMac £879, Mac Book Pro now were getting into the realms of crazy money.
Whilst the macworld link may try to compare prices and software, etc. but I would hardly cal that independent, I'm sure that Dell could put a different spin on things. I've just been reading a 5 page 'Should your next computer be an Apple' article in Micro Mart where much of this is covered.
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So sad Sasha!
I had no idea Mac's suck so badly for Flash ... I only worked with Photoshop once using a mac(i think it was a g4) and that worked pretty well(altough far from fast hehe). But it was really really stable and that was the main reason i liked it so much. I cannot tell you how frustrated i get when i have Photoshop crash in windows in the middle of some serious work and i loose hours of work(i learned to save my work very often now ;) ). Stability is very important to me(and i am 100% sure for you as well) and since adobe and macromedia make programs for macosx too i thought it would be cool running macosx on MY comp. So yeah i wans't actually talking about buying a mac(like david pointed out) but running macosx on my old taiwanese PC(built by myself).
P.S: an even better thing would be if adobe made their programs run on linux ;)
Cheers,
Mikey
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I would however spend money on converting my current system to run both operating systems.
I wish virtualization could allow at least to take a look into Mac environment...
I can run Linux virtualized into Windows (and viceversa)... maybe there is a way just to run virtualized Mac into VMWare... but I'm not sure about that. I'll dig a little more...
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I can run Linux virtualized into Windows (and viceversa)... maybe there is a way just to run virtualized Mac into VMWare... but I'm not sure about that. I'll dig a little more...
I guess you would have to have some sort of program that would fool macosx into thinking you have that TPM chip onboard ... If you find such a thing please let us now(altough i seriously doubt you will) ;)
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I can run Linux virtualized into Windows (and viceversa)... maybe there is a way just to run virtualized Mac into VMWare... but I'm not sure about that. I'll dig a little more...
No Tech,
The idea here is to let both operating systems get off their high horses and start
listening to the consumer.
I'm not looking to run a Virtual operating system.
Both systems operate on an Intel processor. Allow Dual Booting.
We can currently do that in Linux why not Apple?
I don't want to buy a Mac I already have a computer that can run 2 operating systems without any problems:
Windows and Linux and (OSX ?)
I just want to add OSX to the list. Let Apple start selling their operating system to run on my Dual Core Intel Processor.
Apple, don't try to sell me a whole new computer just your operating system!!!!
I think that makes good business sense.
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At the place where I work we just recently had a customer bring in a G4?, I believe. Well the power supply was fried, had a different type of electrical connector than a pc etc. For this 125 watt supply to be replaced when we contacted a Mac distributor, the cost of a new power supply of equal wattage etc would have cost as much as a much larger power supply that would replace a pc power supply. The customer just decided to buy another G4 hopefully off of Ebay instead. I wouldn't mind trying what I could of Apple as long as I could use my own pc or similiar. :)
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Sasha Flash Performance in Safari is Terrible but what about in Firefox?
Bob, Apple will not sell Mac OS X for non-apple hardware for 2 reasons
1) apple is a HARDWARE company they make most of their money off of the hardware
2) Mac OS X is so great because Apple controls what hardware it runs on, if they made it avaliable to PC users they would have to support all that hardware floating around and there would be the same driver problems that windows has.
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Flash on the very odd occasion that I use it works fine on firefox.
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Sasha Flash Performance in Safari is Terrible but what about in Firefox?
Bob, Apple will not sell Mac OS X for non-apple hardware for 2 reasons
1) apple is a HARDWARE company they make most of their money off of the hardware
2) Mac OS X is so great because Apple controls what hardware it runs on, if they made it avaliable to PC users they would have to support all that hardware floating around and there would be the same driver problems that windows has.
This is probably why Apple will never be to top contender. They think small.
Sell the Software and expose it to Billions. Why do you think Microsoft is so big?
What driver problems are you taking about???? That's an excuse not a true statement.
Is Apple afraid of growth ???
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apple tried the clone market (letting other copanies build machines and sell them with the Mac OS on it) Back in the 90s the result was Apple nearly went out of Business.
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I mean by driver problems that you must have the driver for each component and on a Mac the drivers are part of OS X and you never have to look for them
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Hey guys!
Found something interesting : http://www.jmusheneaux.com/39c.htm
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dont get me started about Bill Gates...... Grrrrrr
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Sasha Flash Performance in Safari is Terrible but what about in Firefox?
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Same, I tried like million of times doing everything to force that machine to work fine with flash and nothing helped it. Firefox, Safari and what's called the other one, can't recall..
@David - Flash works perfect on Firefox and any other browser, I ran it even on Flock without any problems. But that stands only for PCs. Mac was asking about Firefox on Apple computers. Unfortunatelly exactly the same story as with Safari. Macs are simply not built to run Flash, or should I say, Mac OS has some issues. Probably deals to much with all those bells and whistles, all those effects. So much of processor time waste on some non-important things, so there is nothing left for such a demanding beast such as Flash is.
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dont get me started about Bill Gates...... Grrrrrr
I love that guy, with all his good and bad attributes. ;D He did something that no one else ever did before.
Anyway... you Kyle are our only hope. Do something regarding those possibilities to run MAC OS on PCs... it is not true that one person can not change the World. It IS very possbile... it's just someone needs to bring that out... out loud.
Forums, newsgroups, whatever it takes... there must be something that can be done. I am also sure if that ever happens, that will be the end of Linux literally.
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dont get me started about Bill Gates...... Grrrrrr
Sorry just thought it would be interesting to watch hehe ;)
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Sasha- What Bells and whistles are you talking about in Mac OS X that Vista Does not Have? Mac OS X does not hod the processor Even on the Old PowerPC G4 Machine im typing on (see the screenshot below) look at the % of the processor used by the system is less than 5% on an old 800Mhz G4
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I see Camino is very very hungry on resources ...
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yes and remember it is based on firefox
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Kyle,
All this still boils down to the fact that Apple seems to be happy with it's 3% market share.
With the attitude it currently has, that is probably all it will ever have.
Now that they are finally using an Intel processor, they have a great opportunity to grow but
apparently have chosen to remain in their tiny little cocoon.
Why not give them a push and show them the light. ???
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Sasha- What Bells and whistles are you talking about in Mac OS X that Vista Does not Have? Mac OS X does not hod the processor Even on the Old PowerPC G4 Machine im typing on (see the screenshot below) look at the % of the processor used by the system is less than 5% on an old 800Mhz G4
True, Vista has all those bells and whistles too but I left it our intentionally just because Vista really has no problems with Flash. It plays fast as it does on XP. Mac obviously spends some extra resources on those effects not allowing other important things on screen to run smoothly.
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Bob - Apple does want to grow. But they will not open up OS X. Apple tried it in the 90s and nearly went out of business. So that is why apple has that OS X only on Macs attitude
Sasha- i do not know why OS X has problems with flash when running on PowerPC Processors. However I do not think the the flash plugin is native yet (or the apps that create flash as Adobe owns it now and has not released any Universal applications yet) so that is why its horrible on the intel machines. it will really improve once adobe makes it run natively
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Bob to read more about Apples failed attempt at opening up the Mac OS read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_clone
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This is interesting:
http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/software/os/0,39024180,39235916,00.htm
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Apple tried it in the 90s and nearly went out of business.
Mac
You should know that those where ancient times when it concerns moder day technology. ;D
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And they were still effectively tying the OS to Hardware, you had to buy the Mac clone to get the OS installed not independent OS retail sales.
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David - Yea they tied the OS to hardware. But where can you buy a boxed retail PowerPC Processor like you can an intel or AMD? How about a Motherboard to install that chip on? See it would have been hard to build your own mac then anyway.
Sasha yes apple makes a lot more off of each computer they sell than say dell. another reason they dont want to open up OS X which the money they make pays me pretty well so I can't complain
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Speaking of Apple, will avast! develop a antivirus program for a Mac.
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already in development
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since i have a mini mac for my job work when did you think that might come out Mac.....heard any release time or anything :D
there i told the forum i am a closed mac user also :o
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From what Vlk told me he will post the download to the Public beta within a few weeks.
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From what Vlk told me he will post the download to the Public beta within a few weeks.
An how long ago (How many weeks ago) did he say that?????
By the way Mac you still haven't answered the question as to why Apple
will not develope an OSX or Panther for the PC.
The "tried it in the 90's explanation just doesn't hold water. ;D
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bob it was nearly three weeks ???
Why apple will not make OS X for the PC
1) Apple would have to support ALL of the the hardware floating out there and as it is now its much easier to only support the software in their hardware
2) Mac sales, if you could install OS X on PCs the sales of macs would hit rock bottom and apple makes a lot of money from the hardware ( the $1199 iMac only costs apple about $875 thats a pretty big profit margin)
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here ya go bob http://macvspc.info/pages/01f-pc_myths_debunked.html
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Mac
That's about as bias as a report can get.
But since it was written by an obvious Fan, you can't really expect anything else.
You (Apple) also don't take into account that many of us would gladly pay the price the operating system
but, We already have a computer and certainly don't intend to buy another one just so we can run OSX.
Add up all of the $149.00 Apple could be taking in. You might be surprised at how much potential income
Apple is bypassing.
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Bob im sure apple is bypassing a lot of money. even after the increased support costs they would still make a killing, but im not on the apple board of directors
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When I still worked, we where paid for suggestions which produced revenue. ;D
Doesn't Apple have such an incentive?
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Not for people at the bottom of the chain of command