Avast Scan Techiques - Lazy, Incompetent & Defamation

[KillerMobile]

It has come to our attention that certain so called "Anti Virus" applications are listing Total Recall (particularly our latest build at https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.killermobile.totalrecall) as malware or "Potentially Unwanted Programs". Let us assure you that Total Recall is a 100% safe, and legitimate application (otherwise Google Play wouldn't list our product). The issue is companies such as Avast are both too lazy and incompetent to perform actual scans of what the applications do.

In fact their entire basis for listing Total Recall as a "PUP" is the "Total Recall" package name of the application, which has absolutely nothing to do with what the application does. What Avast is currently doing amounts to nothing less than Defamation and we're currently looking into taking legal action against them, not only to force them to stop defaming Total Recall, but also seeking retribution for damage to our reputation & lost sales. We've already attempted to resolve the matter with them over the past few weeks and have simply been ignored.

You can help us out by contacting Avast directly at http://www.avast.com/en-us/contacts and telling them to remove their unfair & illegal defamation of Total Recall. We also strongly suggest that you find an alternative Anti Virus or Security Application who's product actually scans for unwanted behavior in the application rather than simply triggering from an application's package name.

 Thanks!

 Team Killer Mobile ®

[Eddy]

And what makes you believe it is the name and not the content of the package?

[Flippy]

Hello,

your application have something to do with privacy of users. In your case is recording a user calls. This functionality might be really easily missused. Thats the reason we warn our users this might be dangerous. PUP doesnt mean your aplication is virus its just warn users "hey be careful".

Have a nice day!

Filip Chytrý - Virus analyst

[igor]

PUP means potentially unwanted program. Meaning - if the user installed that program intentionally, it's OK. But if it appeared on their device without their knowledge, something is wrong.

In Windows world, various remote-control tools are detected as PUPs (for example). Sure, those tools can be used in legitimate ways. However, they are also sometimes abused by malware (or other users) as a cheap way of controlling the victim's machine. So if such a tool suddenly appears on your machine without you having installed it, you know something is wrong.

[KillerMobile]

Unfortunately you guys are sadly misinformed, or simply ignorant to the facts. Total Recall appears to be the ONLY Android call recording application being flagged as a PUP. Not to mention Total Recall CANNOT be installed remotely and DOES NOT run hidden, so users would ONLY intentionally install the application. Again, clearly defamation, and we're saving up EVERY email we receive from users, as well as screenshots from the Play Store to document the reputational & sales damage your arbitrary labeling has caused.

I'm attaching a sample comment from the Play Store. Our attorneys love this!

The longer this drags out, the larger the damages will be, and don't take this lightly, we are currently working on this with our legal counsel.

And in response to Eddy - we've done tests to confirm EXACTLY what causes Avast to flag our application, so we know with 100% certainty is has ONLY to do with the package name. Unlike Avast, we're not in the business of defamation, we state just the facts.

Lastly, we're now going to add a new dialog on install, that clarifies the situation with our nearly 1 million users and prompting them to seek an alternative, legitimate security application.

[Eddy]

Hello KillerMobile,

I am just one of the many avast users (and although there are now and then minor problems), for me this is the best anti-malware application.
With the little information I now have, it seems to me flagging the software as a pup is correct.
You claim that users only intentionally install the application.
Well, you know how users are.
Yes/no and they click yes without reading what else is on their screen.
I do not specific mean your software, but it is a good thing for most users if they get a pup warning for certain applications.

I have searched but haven't found any indication that your software is flagged as malware by avast.
Please attach a screenshot or logfile in your next post where it shows it does.
It may help to clear things up/solve the problem(s).
Please do so, even if it is just satisfy my curiosity

seek an alternative, legitimate security application

I don't think that is a smart thing to do. avast is a legitimate security application/company. Personally I would explain to the users why your application is flagged as a pup and that it is a good thing. It is much more friendly and (hopefully) teaches the user a little about security.

As you say it is only the name that is causing the problem.
Why not simply give the package a slightly different name?
Problem solved that way, I would say.

[KillerMobile]

I realize you're just an Avast "Fanboy" and that you don't live with the realities of software development. Changing the package name is impossible, this would require an entirely new listing on the Play Store, losing all of our ranking and feedback (didn't really think about that did you?), and all for what? The idiots here at Avast will simply flag the new app arbitrarily. As for your opinion, since you're really no expert in this area...... well, I think you can read between the lines here.

Here's a recent email response from one of our users on this matter (and again, another email we're forwarding over to our legal counsel):

Hi, thanks for getting back to me on this.
 
It appears to have been due to Avast Anti virus being installed.  It was treating the app as a potenitally unwanted program, and even adding it to the ignore list didnt work.  I installed the generic total recall and this worked, until avast did another scan, and then this stopped working.  The app loaded momentarily, then closed.
 
There is a switch in avast, settings, PUP detection - Treat potentially unwanted programs as malware.  Once this was unchecked, the app loaded successfully.
 
I hope this helps for any future queries you might get ona  similar subject.

So clearly with the default Avast settings, there's both clear damage to our product's functionality as well as to our reputation.

We're not going away, and we will be seeing Avast in a courtroom sooner rather than later, which will hopefully open the floodgates to similar lawsuits and put these clowns out of business.

[Eddy]

you don't live with the realities of software development

I am developing/programming software since 1982.

There is no need for name calling.
As I said, your application should be flagged as a pup.
There is nothing wrong with that.
You as a developer should understand that.

The text of the mail clearly shows that it is the users choice if they want to detect/block possible pup's.
If I want all my text in e.g. MS-Word to be blue, is it Microsoft to blame that they have set it to black by default?
No, it is my choice and I can simply change it.

I can understand that you're not pleased when a security software flags your application as a pup or even as malware.
I've had it twice that some of my software was flagged as malware.
Not only by avast, but also by other security software.
Unlike you, I told all vendors involved polite about the problem and when they asked for it, I provided them the applications for analyzing.
And guess what... Within 48 hours all had solved the problem and thanked me for mentioning the problem and the information.

How do they say it... "You catch more flies with syrup than with vinegar" (?)

Igor,
is avast really using packages/software names to detect pup's or not?
Can you elaborate a bit how avast detects pup's?

[Filip Havlicek]

Igor,
is avast really using packages/software names to detect pup's or not?
Can you elaborate a bit how avast detects pup's?

It can use anything that can be found in the installation package of the app, package name included of course (as it is written inside). The actual parts used are highly dependent on the specific detection and can't be generalized.

Filip

[KillerMobile]

Actually, no, Total Recall should NOT be listed as a PUP, it's a legitimate software application containing no ads, no spamware and that can only be installed if the user wants the application. And again, listing Total Recall in this fashion IS in fact Defamation.

Again, I realize you're a big fanboy here, with a distorted sense of reality (and far too much free time it appears), but this user had to spend a quite of bit of their free time figuring out exactly WHY he was having the issue in the first place and then having to manually adjust his Avast settings just to get Total Recall to work. We have a HUGE issue with this and if you're incapable of understanding why, there's simply no hope for you, which is irrelevant anyways since you don't even work for Avast, you're simply an unpaid cheerleader here on the forums.

In any event, there's nothing left to debate. Either Avast makes the change, or we'll see them in court to both force them to remove the label as well as to seek both actual & punitive damages. The fact of the matter (as the title of this thread already mentions), Avast's "PUP" feature is nothing more than a lazy, sloppy method of attempting to make their application appear useful at the expense of legitimate companies such as ourselves.  In many cases they perform absolutely NO heuristic scan which is an utter joke, and again, defamation (which is illegal), if you're not actually scanning "Unwanted" behavior, how on earth can you pass judgment that the application is a "PUP"?

[alkanbw]

I am big fan Total Recall Killer Mobile and if you gays from Avast will not solve a problem (PUP on and blocking) I will unistall Avast just tomorrow,

[Eddy]

Actually, no, Total Recall should NOT be listed as a PUP, it's a legitimate software application containing no ads, no spamware and that can only be installed if the user wants the application.

Yes it should since it stores personal data from the user(s) and that is a security risk. And who/what is saying that is not a legitimate application or that it has ads/malware or such? avast certainly doesn't and nor has anyone in this thread.

Again, I realize you're a big fanboy here, with a distorted sense of reality

Fanboy? No, definitely not. I'm just trying/using the best software for what I want/need. And for the second part... If you really are a software developer/business man, keep it nice. Don't act/talk like a politician who has no clue about what he is talking about.

but this user had to spend a quite of bit of their free time figuring out exactly WHY he was having the issue in the first place and then having to manually adjust his Avast settings just to get Total Recall to work

Compliments to that user. He is one of the very few that actually spend some time on learning how to handle a pc and how to use software. Everyone should do that.

We have a HUGE issue with this and if you're incapable of understanding

The real problem is that you do not understand how good security software is working. Your software is storing personal data and users should be aware/warned about that. And that is exactly what avast is doing. It is than to the users to decide if they want it or not. Which is what avast let them do.

which is irrelevant anyways since you don't even work for Avast, you're simply an unpaid cheerleader here on the forums

Indeed, I do not work for avast, nor do I get paid by them in any way. Me a cheerleader? rofl, you really don't want to see me in a outfit that cheerleaders are wearing. Besides, it is way to cold for that now where I am living.

Defamation is the communication of a false statement that harms the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government, religion, or nation.

Since avast says a possibly unwanted program, there is no defamation at all.

In any event, there's nothing left to debate. Either Avast makes the change, or we'll see them in court to both force them to remove the label as well as to seek both actual & punitive damages.

Why spending money on a case that you already have lost before starting it? Why not spend the money on improving your application?

[KillerMobile]

Look, I realize Eddy, you're not the sharpest stick in the stack, however it's clear that even by Avast's own description of what PUP's are, Total Recall is NOT a PUP

http://forum.avast.com/index.php?topic=54216.0

Does Total Recall run hidden? No
Does Total Recall report data without a user's permission? No
Does Total Recall install secondary apps? No
Can Total Recall install without appearing in the running applications list, Task Manager, Installed List? No
Does Total Recall display a clear application icon? Yes, in fact there's even an optional widget
Does every user of Total Recall know exactly what they're installing (a call recorder)? Yes

I realize you're stuck in your current position, being a hardcore Avast fanboy and such with clearly way, way too much time on your hands and absolutely no ability to think reasonably or rationally on the subject, so this will be my very last response to you on the subject. Maybe you can find something more productive to do, say like finding a paying job?

My apologies if I come across as a jerk, I'm not here looking to make a new "forum buddy". What I am here to do is defend and protect our products & our business from unfair and illegal labeling by reckless, lazy & incompetent so called "security" applications.

[VickyG]

Dear friends,
i am both an avast user and a Total Recall user and i love both the programs.
Since a couple of days, suddenly Total Recall stop working, so i wrote an email to them complaining. I even asked them if they released a wrong update, since stuff like this may happen when new releases create some compatibility issue.
When the guy asked me if i had Avast installed i couldn't believe that it has something to do with the issue, since they have been installed together for weeks and i didn't understand why suddenly Avast should flag TR without reason. Then i realized that maybe it happened simply because Avast did perform a scan and found TR to be potentially dangerous. In fact, some days ago Avast suddenly started to advice me to uninstall TR but i ignored it and completely forgot it. It insisted a lot, actually, but i fixed the issue adding TR to the ignore list or the safe list, i don't remember, then i thought the issue was fixed.

Now, suddenly TR didn't work anymore and about this, i have to say that Total Recall programmers are right...
First, Total Recall is a non-free program so it is very strange that somebody may have it installed without knowing it :-)
Second, i can understand very well that an antivirus and antimalware program flags an application that is trying to record phone calls, this is ok, but... AFTER THE USER MOVES THE PROGRAM IN THE SAFE OR IGNORE LIST.. why the hell it still can't work?

I think this is the moment avast goes on the wrong side.
Because i remember very well that i told avast to treat TR as a safe program and when i enter the AVAST Application Manager Menu or Blocked Application Menu, until now i can't see any flag at the TR voice. So why still can't work?!
Finally, now the only way to fix the problem is to enter AVAST, advanced setting, and uncheck the PUP rilevation (sorry my program is in italian so i hope you undestand which voice i have to uncheck). But this way i am not PUP protected!

Once again, Killer Mobile programmers are absolutely right complaining AND Avast guys are also right to flag PUPs.
The problem is that AFTER THE USER UNFLAG THE APP, IT SHOULD IMMEDIATELY GO BACK WORKING.
Because in order to let the application work, now i have to DISABLE the pup function that may be usefull for other threats.
Simply, avast should add a safe list where the user can unflag the apps, that seems to exist already but appears to be not working.

Thats my 2 cents
hoping that you can solve the problem friendly.

V

[Mattk]

First of all, you need to calm down, because your behavior here is highly unprofessional. Yes, you're trying to defend your product but you're doing it the wrong way. There's really no need for insulting other users (Eddy) - saying he doesn't live with the realities of software development without knowing a thing about him, that's low. Also saying he's not the sharpest stick because he doesn't accept your opinions, that's really low. And "disorted sense of reality and far too much free time", that's just stupid. You're just a sad, angry person with no attitude punching walls around you, that's all. Yes, you come across as a jerk, that's one thing you got right.

If you were a professional, we'd see that. You're just a kid that built a sand castle and cries when the tide starts. That's all.