Author Topic: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times  (Read 120751 times)

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dk70

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Re: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times
« Reply #120 on: October 15, 2005, 11:49:17 PM »
He can talk but wont listen. There is no big discovery to make regarding CCleaner or Prefetch. Everyone understands or can look it up. No secrets. Difference is Mastertech make a big fuss out of nothing. What he see as a major problem hardly anyone will ever notice. But because no one bothers to check him or the "issue" out his word are eaten up like candy...

Ive tried several times now to make him understand his ONLY issue is CCleaner on/off and not trying to make people believe program screw up computer cause it tries to corrupt use of prefetching. His big trick is he conviniently jumps over all details, like the "problem" rely on OS hack which have absolutely nothing to do with CCleaner, and assume worse case scenario - then he blaims CCleaner. Which, as you can clearly see, does in fact take prefetch methode into consideration when doing the optional cleaning up.

Try real hard to understand what it is he see as a major and dangerous problem. When you understand he have lost 2 more ears. Even with correct use of program he still see disaster. I doubt anyone can relate.

That and because he obviously have no intention of debating or questining own words S.Z.Craftec is why he eventutally will get banned. Instead of thinking of free speech then try thinking about him thrashing a program with assumptions and false statements. Good it is not Avast right?

Look at headline for all these posts. False but says it all. If he wanted to communicate he would, politely, have raised the issue of ntfs access hack not going along with features depending on it. Much the same way you will see it for perhaps a backup program. If you read CCleaner description of old prefetch data you see mentioning of access - but not a warning against disabling that ntfs feature through registry hack or tweaker. That is absolutely only "mistake" you can blaim CC for. Rest is imagination, assumptions and having 1 eyed closed.

Mastertech

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Re: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times
« Reply #121 on: October 16, 2005, 12:39:49 AM »
Quote
However, in my case, my browser starts up with less time than letting me use a stopwatch while I disabled the Prefetch function...
This can happen if prefetching was never enabled properly to begin with or disabled and never properly renabled. Try this, BootVis is the most accurate way to time startup:

Testing Prefetching At Bootup

Enable Prefetching and Test

1. Services
Task Scheduler = Automatic
COM+ Event System = Automatic

2. Registry (Using Regedit)
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\Memory Management\PrefetchParameters
Name: EnablePrefetcher
Type: REG_DWORD
Value: 3

3. Reboot three times.

4. Download and Run BootVis. In the menu go to "Trace", select "Next Boot and Driver trace". A "Trace Repetitions" screen will appear, select "Ok" and Reboot. Upon reboot, BootVis will automatically start, analyze and log your system's boot process. When it's done, in the menu go to "Trace" and select "Optimize System" and Reboot. This time when your system comes up, wait until you see the "Optimizing System" box appear, continue to wait until the process is complete.

5. Now you system is optimized for Prefetching run BootVis, go to "Trace", select "Next Boot". Record the time.

Note: You need to confirm Prefetching is working by looking in the C:\Windows\Prefetch folder. For Boot Prefetching you should see a NTOSBOOT-xxxxxxxx.pf and a layout.ini file in the folder. If not prefetching is not working. The built-in Disk Defragmenter needs to be installed and operational (nLite users) Otherwise BootVis can invoke the layout optimization. By default Windows does this every three days, for testing or anytime you want an immediate improvement, say you added or removed a startup option use BootVis and the "Optimize System" option.


Disable Prefetching and Test

1. Registry (Using Regedit)
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\Memory Management\PrefetchParameters
Name: EnablePrefetcher
Type: REG_DWORD
Value: 0

2. Run BootVis, go to "Trace", select "Next Boot". Record the time.

Note: These steps are necessary only to confirm your system is setup to use prefetching properly and for this test. On a regular (non tweaked) XP install (not nLite) the Prefetcher is enabled by default, the two services set to automatic, the disk defragmenter is installed and the Registry Key set to 3. After three regular boots it will automatically take effect and after three days layout the files automatically and continue to do so automatically. The problem is with certain tweak programs or custom installs that break the Prefetcher. In which case the steps to enable prefetching above should get you back to normal, if all the features are there (no guarantees with an nLite install).

Mastertech

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Re: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times
« Reply #122 on: October 16, 2005, 12:55:04 AM »
Quote
But because no one bothers to check him or the "issue" out his word are eaten up like candy...
Yes you have not checked anything out I said.

Quote
Ive tried several times now to make him understand his ONLY issue is CCleaner on/off and not trying to make people believe program screw up computer cause it tries to corrupt use of prefetching. His big trick is he conviniently jumps over all details, like the "problem" rely on OS hack which have absolutely nothing to do with CCleaner, and assume worse case scenario - then he blaims CCleaner. Which, as you can clearly see, does in fact take prefetch methode into consideration when doing the optional cleaning up.
Dk I really don't know how else to explain to you that by default CCleaner deletes prefetch files based on a two week access date. This allows for deletion of a prefetch file for an installed application. When you decided to launch that application it would launch unoptimized and slower. It doesn't corrupt prefetching for those applications but completely disables it on that load. If you don't use your computer for two weeks and come back it will delete them all. The point is simple, it should never delete a prefetch file for an installed application before the 128 limit is reached. XP already does this so it is useless for CCleaner to even bother, especially when it uses such a flawed method to determine if a prefetch file is necessary based on an access date not whether the application is installed. The NTFS tweak further shows how flawed this method can be.

DK try honestly answering one of the questions I have posted over and over. I have provided proof when asked, you keep dodging my questions.

Offline szc

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Re: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times
« Reply #123 on: October 16, 2005, 02:06:12 AM »
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...
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That and because he obviously have no intention of debating or questining own words S.Z.Craftec is why he eventutally will get banned. Instead of thinking of free speech then try thinking about him thrashing a program with assumptions and false statements. Good it is not Avast right?
...
...
...

Of course, but your words above doesn't make sense. You know why ? I'll tell you now why...

"Good it is not Avast right?" - what do you mean ? You are maybe trying to tell us that you are defending CCLeaner, because it sounds like that ? Are you one of the developers, and that's why you are trying so hard to prove that Mastertech is telling anything but bull ? I mean, by the number of posts (which is non-important in some other cases of course) I would say that both of you collected pretty much of 90% if not 100% of your posts in this thread... isn't that little off ?

What makes you think no one is allowed to say anything against avast! ? Of course, it wouldn't be nice to come here in these forums and bash avast! without any reason. We are here so long time, helping others with their problems, that it makes our work, which is by the way free and our good will nothing else, useless... why would we look at someone came in here and bashin this product ig he has no reason at all ? If he has some reasons, we are here to try to help him and to solve those problems. If we can not do that, we ask Alwil guys, and that cooperation always works perfectly... Also, we are those who asks questions as well, when something is unclear... we are not all-knowing guys, we are here to provide help if possible... if not, Alwil jumps in. See here, I among the others reported some startup issues, so do not tell me we are here to "hide" some avast! issues or something  ;) :

http://forum.avast.com/index.php?topic=16882.0

Again, not trying to step on anyone's toes, just saying that there are some other ways, much better ways to discuss things. This will eventually turn into flamming, and that, Alwil won't tolerate. I don't believe anyone will be abnned from here, but I'm sure someone will step in and lock this thread. Really, I didn't see anything else but nice healthy discussion, but it doesn't mean it will not grow into something else... something no one wants to see in here. I am long enough in these forums to know how those things ends up... not nice, trust me on this one.

We all are friends in here and let's try to keep it that way. If you two disagree on some things, that's ok too. No two individuals are alike, so why would anyone expect you two have to get along ? Think of it...

Regards !
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darth.mikey

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Re: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times
« Reply #124 on: October 16, 2005, 02:38:23 AM »
You see they'll  keep arguing till Christmas Sasha if someone doesn't close this thread and it'll help no one....You two(mastertech and dk70) can continue trough PM's, seriously guys if anyone reading this thread(and all the links provided) doesn't get why you shouldn't use the clean prefetch function in CCleaner that's his problem not mine and it's his opinion and i'll respect it even though i don't agree but i won't argue in this thread about it....

Offline szc

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Re: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times
« Reply #125 on: October 16, 2005, 02:44:23 AM »
Haha Miha, what's the time in Slovenia now ? Shouldn't you be sleeping now ? Counting those jumping sheeps... jumping over ther fence... 1...2...3...4...5...etc.

One of them would be RejZoR, right ?  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D
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darth.mikey

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Re: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times
« Reply #126 on: October 16, 2005, 02:49:43 AM »
Haha Miha, what's the time in Slovenia now ? Shouldn't you be sleeping now ? Counting those jumping sheeps... jumping over ther fence... 1...2...3...4...5...etc.

One of them would be RejZoR, right ?  ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

2:50 AM: Yes i was already sleeping but i woke up was a bit thirsty and now i'm awake... No sheeps for me Sasha(especially man ones) i count the stars.....   ;D

Mastertech

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Re: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times
« Reply #127 on: October 16, 2005, 03:31:16 AM »
Quote
You see they'll  keep arguing till Christmas Sasha if someone doesn't close this thread and it'll help no one....You two(mastertech and dk70) can continue trough PM's, seriously guys if anyone reading this thread
No need I have explained it as best as I possibly can. I do not believe PMs will make a difference. At this point I just keep repeating myself.

To make this clear, I actually recommend CCleaner just not with the "old prefetch data" option checked. I obviously think it should be removed and have given plenty of evidence including tests as to why. At this point I will continue with any performance testing discussion. I would like the thread to stay open for this reason.

darth.mikey

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Re: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times
« Reply #128 on: October 16, 2005, 03:46:21 AM »
I just keep repeating myself

That's all i'm saying....   ;D

Offline bob3160

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Re: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times
« Reply #129 on: October 16, 2005, 06:38:53 AM »
Quote
At this point I will continue with any performance testing discussion. I would like the thread to stay open for this reason.
IMHO, I think this subject has been beaten to death but, there isn't anything in this thread that warrent's closing it.
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Umath

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Re: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times
« Reply #130 on: October 16, 2005, 10:28:35 PM »
Mastertech, what I meant is that my browser starts in a blink even when prefetch function is disabled and I don't have practical reasoning to enable the function again.  Knowing the security issue, I'd prefer in this way.  I don't know about other systems but all the application I need works quickly enough for me probably partially because I like simple ones.  Thanx for the info, though.

Quote
At this point I will continue with any performance testing discussion. I would like the thread to stay open for this reason.
IMHO, I think this subject has been beaten to death but, there isn't anything in this thread that warrent's closing it.


There have been weird rivalries outside of technical information but they don't seem to have done much harm than I worried.  The closing issue seems to be turrned out nothing to be fussed about, as well.  ;)

darth.mikey

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Re: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times
« Reply #131 on: October 16, 2005, 10:41:03 PM »
Mastertech, what I meant is that my browser starts in a blink even when prefetch function is disabled and I don't have practical reasoning to enable the function again.  Knowing the security issue, I'd prefer in this way.  I don't know about other systems but all the application I need works quickly enough for me probably partially because I like simple ones.  Thanx for the info, though.

Ehhhhmmmm what security issue would that be?

Umath

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Re: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times
« Reply #132 on: October 16, 2005, 10:52:59 PM »
(Regsisting temptation of using Star Wars cliche.),  darth.mikey, you must have been too distracted.  ;)

Check some posts by FreewheelinFrank.  Tech also mentioned the privacy issue.  I'd take them as information and not argument against anyone, though.

darth.mikey

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Re: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times
« Reply #133 on: October 16, 2005, 11:13:27 PM »
Who's arguing?I'm just asking....And if you read the link that Frank gave you'd see that a guy had a problem with a trojan that was hiding in Prefetch folder, but let me tell you a folder is a folder and malware can hide in any folder  so that is no reason to disable the Prefetch function ;) And if you tried the tests that Mastertech gave us you would see how Prefetch really helps to load programs faster...

P.S: Didn't you write this?

This is what I would have written.  Another vote for closing.  ;)

Cheers

Mikey

EDIT: Could you quote me what Tech said on "the privacy issue" ? And remember no one is arguing we're just talking...  ;)

« Last Edit: October 16, 2005, 11:15:47 PM by darth.mikey »

Umath

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Re: CCleaner Cripples Application Load Times
« Reply #134 on: October 17, 2005, 12:16:47 AM »
Who's arguing?I'm just asking.... (...) And remember no one is arguing we're just talking...  ;)

I used the word "argument" as a reason given to disprove something or what some people say.  Not as a quarrel.

Who's arguing?I'm just asking....And if you read the link that Frank gave you'd see that a guy had a problem with a trojan that was hiding in Prefetch folder, but let me tell you a folder is a folder and malware can hide in any folder  so that is no reason to disable the Prefetch function ;)

This is a matter of point of views but I understand it as "fewer folders mean fewer hiding places."  In fact, I separate storage partitions from app one and am trying to keep the app one as small as possible.

P.S: Didn't you write this?

This is what I would have written.  Another vote for closing.  ;)

And I am not critisizing anyone (if it were taken as "criticism" at all) as much as myself.  Yet agian, I think this is just the impression caused by my use of the word "argument," I used it rather carelessly, I think.  The word itself is often used in academic subjects as well and I thought it was quite safe.

EDIT: Could you quote me what Tech said on "the privacy issue" ?

?  Sorry, probably someone else but if we share our systems with someone intentionally or unintentionally ;), the pre-fetch data gives way what apps we are using.

Though, none of them are big issues, I think.