Author Topic: Is Data Shredded doing its job?  (Read 5779 times)

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Is Data Shredded doing its job?
« on: August 31, 2016, 09:02:33 AM »
Hi,

Since quite a few years now I have been purchasing the Avast Premier edition, especially for the included Data Shredder tool.
Yesterday I wanted to shred a video I made during summer vacation.
The video was about 100 MB. It was stored on a Samsung 850 EVO SSD disk. The Data Shredder tool is set to "Guntmann Algorithm" for the "shred files" option.
MUCH to my surprise, almost as soon as I clicked the 'shred' button, the interface told me the operation was successfully completed.
It literally took just a fraction of a second.

How can this be possible?
The SSD disk has a maximal write speed of 520 MB/s, as clearly indicated on Samsung's webpages.
This means that, to overwrite my video 26 times as required by the Guntmann Algorithm, it should take 26*(100/520) = 5 seconds.
The operation was completed in less than half second.

Care to explain such discrepancy?
I am now wondering if Data Shredder really does its job correctly.

Thank you for your help.
Filippo

Offline Asyn

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Re: Is Data Shredded doing its job?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2016, 10:17:16 AM »
Most probably the overwrite cycles run/finish in the background. (Just guessing here, though.)
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Offline Eddy

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Re: Is Data Shredded doing its job?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2016, 10:18:08 AM »
Try to recover the data and you will know if DataSchredder did its job or not.

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Re: Is Data Shredded doing its job?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2016, 10:19:18 AM »
Try to recover the data and you will know if DataSchredder did its job or not.
+1
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Offline Skakara

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Re: Is Data Shredded doing its job?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2016, 12:20:34 PM »
AFAIK, you can't erase a single file securely on a SSD drive.

Here's one article (from 2014 but still relevent AFAIK):

Quote
Solid State Drives (SSDs)

It’s not exactly the same for Solid State Drives. SSDs are always shifting files around, randomly. So, figuratively speaking, if you deleted a file from location 2871, the deleted info may, sooner or later, get moved off to another random location, until at some point in time the SSD decides to finally overwrite that file. How do you target the old file for secure deletion on an SSD, then?

Well, you can’t really. A group of engineers at the University of California studied how difficult it is to erase data from an SSD. Trying to securely erase a single file left behind anywhere from 4 to 75% of the information. And it’s tough on the drive. What you can do is make sure you encrypt your SSD, and make sure that you’ve got an SSD drive with TRIM capability.

And here's people talking about it in Ubuntu forums (in 2016):

Quote
Currently there's no way to securely erase files on SSD without erasing the content of the whole drive or access to the firmware of the SSD.
  • It's impossible to know where the SSD may store previous copies of a logical block.
  • To make matters worse, due to journalling and copy-on-write mechanisms of the file system it may be impossible to know which logical blocks may hold a previous copy of a particular file.
The only way to prevent the leakage of deleted files to someone with direct access to the drive is to encrypt them in the first place and keep the encryption key safe from prying eyes.

And I personally have been talking about this with a certain Windows erase program developer and he gave me the same kind of information.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 12:23:06 PM by Skakara »

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Re: Is Data Shredded doing its job?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2016, 12:58:14 PM »
Try to recover the data and you will know if DataSchredder did its job or not.

This doesn't really say much, as it may be the recovery program being bad (especially since I don't have a paid recovery tool, so I can only use the "free" ones).


AFAIK, you can't erase a single file securely on a SSD drive.

Interesting read. However, afaik all those studies focus on deleting one single file.
I guess if, after deleting a file, one runs a full "clean free space on disk", then everything should be erased properly.
Would that be correct?

EDIT:
After thinking about it, I am sure Avast Data Shredder issues a warning when secure erase is not supported by the selected disk, but it gives no warning when I delete stuff on the SSD.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2016, 01:00:03 PM by filosteel »

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Re: Is Data Shredded doing its job?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2016, 01:22:07 PM »
Best free one there is > http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk
I haven't seen a paid one that does a better job and I've seen a lot of paid ones (including ones used by forensic institutions) in the +34 years I've been busy with computers.

Offline Skakara

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Re: Is Data Shredded doing its job?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2016, 03:23:21 PM »
Here's more interesting reading about the topic, it's a long article but makes you understand more the issue. And a following article by the same guy.

Interesting read. However, afaik all those studies focus on deleting one single file.
I guess if, after deleting a file, one runs a full "clean free space on disk", then everything should be erased properly.
Would that be correct?
AFAIK, no. I'll quote a comment posted in the 1st article link above:

Quote
None of the other techniques (trim, format, overwrite…) are really efficient since the SSD controller doesn’t let you control what physical areas of the drive you access, so you have no guarantee that you actually scrubbed everything.

You proposal to format, then encrypt the whole disk with TrueCrypt after the fact will not work either: SSDs are over-provisioned to cope with wear, they actually have more physical space than they report so “encrypting the whole disk” would not actually overwrite all blocks.

Encrypting the drive from the start, then securing erasing it would probably be more effective.

But in the end, it all comes down to the fact that you don’t know and don’t control what the SSD actually does.

So, again AFAIK (because this issue is really hard and there doesn't seem to be a "definitive answer"), even wiping the whole drive is not a fully secure way to get rid of data on SSD's. Here's Hardwipe tool developer's comment (reading the following, one has to take into consideration that wiping is their business):

Quote
Flash Memory

Limited write cycle endurance and associated wear leveling techniques used in flash memory devices present special considerations.

When wiping individual file items, there can be no guarantee that existing data will be fully overwritten at the physical level in solid-state drives (SSDs) and USB flash drives. However, this is not a reason not to do it. Although wiping individual files may not prevent full or partial recovery should the device electronics be subject to forensic analysis, it will usually be sufficient to thwart recovery software reading at the device interface, including "undelete" and disk imaging utilities.

Overwriting the entire accessible storage of a flash device represents a more reliable method of data destruction. It has been found* that a full drive overwrite using a two pass sanitization scheme (or more) can be expected to destroy most of the data on the device, but should not be considered to be universally reliable. However, writable flash memory elements have a limited life in terms of erase cycles (around 3,000 to 5,000 cycles), hence the use of wear leveling techniques in these devices. For this reason, overwriting an entire SSD, or a large proportion of its storage area, should be a task performed only sparingly.

Encrypting the whole drive from the beginning seems to be the best option. However, that too seems to have pitfalls too. One commenter (from 1st article link):

Quote
One thing to note about encryption on ssd, most forensic tools were best on the encrypted drives because trace elements of the key are left unencrypted.

Also one might find the Recovering Evidence from SSD Drives article by Belkasoft interesting.


Erasing SSD is a difficult issue. I'm not using a SSD yet, still with HDD and erasing regularly some files, but when I'll start using SSD's, with the information I now have, I'll most probably start using full disk encryption and forget erasing completely. FWIW.

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Re: Is Data Shredded doing its job?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2016, 06:18:20 PM »
Here's more interesting reading about the topic, it's a long article but makes you understand more the issue.

Thank you for the articles, interesting read indeed!
Then it seems that next time I will need to temporarily copy or save on my computer some sensible data, I will do so on a normal HDD, so that a secure erase will be possible.

Best free one there is > http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk

Thank you for the link. I have tried it, but without any option to specify the filetype, or order the list of files the program presents, it's absolutely impossible to track down one file among the ocean of deleted temporary files and system files and all other stuff.

Any way... I wanted to point out this suspect behaviour from Data Shredder

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Re: Is Data Shredded doing its job?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2016, 07:01:07 PM »
Btw. I see in Moderate this topic has already been reported to Avast Moderators, so lets wait what they come up with :)

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Re: Is Data Shredded doing its job?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2016, 01:58:55 PM »
Btw. I see in Moderate this topic has already been reported to Avast Moderators, so lets wait what they come up with :)

Greetz, Red.

Thanks for the info, let's see then :)
hopefully they will answer soon

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Re: Is Data Shredded doing its job?
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2016, 02:17:58 PM »
hopefully they will answer soon

Apparently not :P
Sorry for necroing, but I'm very curious about this.

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Re: Is Data Shredded doing its job?
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2016, 06:01:41 AM »
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