Author Topic: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders / files, persistent / transient caching  (Read 4820 times)

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Offline Evanna456

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Re: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders and files
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2018, 01:17:05 AM »
if SSD is that capable, SHDD would not have exist.
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Offline DavidR

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Re: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders and files
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2018, 01:47:59 AM »
if SSD is that capable, SHDD would not have exist.

I think that cost is a major factor, in SHDD. Compared to the overall size the of the solid state element of the SHDD is pretty small (some systems have more RAM than is in an SHDD) and no where close to a modern SDD drive.
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Offline Evanna456

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Re: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders and files
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2018, 01:51:06 AM »
Yes its true HDD wears out but the speed will probably be the same unlike SSD's. To keep SSD's performance on top, one should not keep writing things on it or putting trash on it. All trash should be on the HDD.

BTW HDD is cheap to replace unlike SSD.

HDD write durability far outclassed SSD. The reason HDD breaks is when the header scratch the surface of the disk and it does that when the HDD fails to reduce the rpm when it detects movement also when you make an unexpected fast movement/bump.

In every SSD write it degrades the cells and bit by bit reduces the performance. I dont care of how durable ssd write is, all i want is to keep its performance like OP said.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 04:27:01 AM by Evanna456 »
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Offline Rundvleeskroket

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Re: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders and files
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2018, 06:41:45 AM »
Read what I have already explained. To wear out a modern SSD with writes you have to hammer it day in day out for years. You can't even put that kind of load on a HDD because it doesn't have the I/O capability. But hammer that as hard as you can for years, and it will break. Notions of an SSD wearing out from writes, even under heavy home user scenarios, are outdated and wrong.

Even lowly budget consumer drives stand up to server grade punishment much better than they ever should be expected to. Server grade SSDs are rated for even more ridiculous numbers of full disk writes per day. Something outside the realm of what a home user will ever get up to.

The writes from Avast are miniscule by comparison to this academic discussion. SSD performance is not affected by them. It isn't a valid argument and hasn't been for the better part of a decade. Period.

By the way: HDDs do not reduce rpm when shock is detected. The platters spin too fast and have too much momentum to act in a fraction of a second. The heads will move away from the platter surface instead. You don't seem to know what you're talking about. Please stop spreading misinformation.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 07:35:28 AM by Rundvleeskroket »

Offline Rundvleeskroket

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Re: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders and files
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2018, 07:31:50 AM »
Furthermore, your statement does not make any sense:

if SSD is that capable, SHDD would not have exist.

SHDDs exist because of price point and space constraints. The market for them is evaporating quickly. SSDs now hold enough for most people's needs. And for those that need a lot of storage, a combination of a discrete SSD and HDD delivers a much higher performance and better price per total capacity. Even in laptops with no space for two separate drives, an onboard NVME SSD and a regular spinner is becoming normal.

The whole point of an SHDD is to offload burst reads and writes to NAND, so that frequently accessed data is in flash memory, and so that the HDD can deal with more optimized sequential I/O in the background. This means the SSD part is used to unburden the HDD, not the other way around! Which goes exactly counter to your whole premise. If SSDs are so fragile, SHDDs are a worst case scenario for them. Small capacity, so high write amplification. And constant swapping of data from the spinner part to keep relevant data in NAND.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 07:38:28 AM by Rundvleeskroket »

Offline bob3160

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Re: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders and files
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2018, 01:44:56 PM »
Yes its true HDD wears out but the speed will probably be the same unlike SSD's. To keep SSD's performance on top, one should not keep writing things on it or putting trash on it. All trash should be on the HDD.

BTW HDD is cheap to replace unlike SSD.

HDD write durability far outclassed SSD. The reason HDD breaks is when the header scratch the surface of the disk and it does that when the HDD fails to reduce the rpm when it detects movement also when you make an unexpected fast movement/bump.

In every SSD write it degrades the cells and bit by bit reduces the performance. I dont care of how durable ssd write is, all i want is to keep its performance like OP said.
You are describing traits of old (original released) drives.
Things have changed a great deal since these drives were first introduced. :)
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Offline Evanna456

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Re: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders and files
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2018, 01:33:08 AM »
some HDD's reduce its rpm when shock is detected. Its an undeniable fact, some HDD's do have that feature especially the notebook types.

SSD limited number of writes exist at some point. With many SSD drives failing in its early release, i wouldnt trust its technology just yet.

keeping away trash from your ssd is the best option here. It will slow down anyway if it gradually fills up.

Old trait? HDD still has the best write durability.

and HDD wouldn't slow down until it hits 15% free space.

HDD is cheap to do the hard labors and its okay to get full. Little risk.
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Offline DavidR

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Re: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders and files
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2018, 02:03:21 AM »
@ Evanna456
Lets not lose sight of what the OP 'Lexor' is asking, he has an SSD and is looking to get the best results, performance and longevity out of it.

What you are describing are very old versions of SDDs they have come on leaps and bounds from the originals, both in their software controllers, speed, size and reliability.  It will still be some time before prices get anywhere close of HDDs, but now we are seeing 256GB and 512GB as fairly common (reasonably priced) options as the primary drive in laptops.

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Considering it has a laptop chip, it is very fast as starting applications, blisteringly fast for some.  I have had it for over a year and zero SSD issues.
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Offline Evanna456

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Re: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders and files
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2018, 02:29:38 AM »
although HDD have the best write durability it doesnt mean SSD wont stand a chance. It has a limited write cap on it but it will still last years just like Rundvleeskroket explained.

I still quite see a handful of benchmarks regarding SSD's of 2017 failing to meet the write cap spec. Thats why the technology cannot be trusted yet but it will eventually.

Performance aside, SSD slows down as it gradually fills up and worse when it hits 25% free space.
So its best to keep it from getting a lot of trash especially for smaller SSD's. [2017]

Avast doesnt make a lot of temp trash but it you have many apps like adobe products you need to divert the temp dir.
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Offline Rundvleeskroket

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Re: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders and files
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2018, 05:17:16 AM »
some HDD's reduce its rpm when shock is detected. Its an undeniable fact, some HDD's do have that feature especially the notebook types.
You said the HDD 'breaks' when it fails to reduce rpm when shock is detected. That is false. Reducing rpm takes time. Much longer than the shock lasts. Reducing rpm will sooner lower head flight height and increase chances of a head crash. The only thing a HDD can do to prevent a head crash is to move the head away from the surface. Rpm has NOTHING to do with this. So stop talking nonsense.

Quote
SSD limited number of writes exist at some point. With many SSD drives failing in its early release, i wouldnt trust its technology just yet.

Your information is outdated and wrong. Either learn the facts about the state of technology of today, or just shut up please. Because spreading lies does nobody any good.

Quote

keeping away trash from your ssd is the best option here. It will slow down anyway if it gradually fills up.


So does a HDD. No space for defragmentation and file placement optimization on a nearly full drive. Resulting in more writes to the same sectors left free, physically wearing them out. An SSD can still move most of it's data around to keep the freshest cells available. This is what wear leveling is and does.

And let's not forget a HDD usually starts filling up from the outer tracks to the inner tracks. So the fuller a HDD is, the slower it is. In both reads and writes. Because these now happen from the tracks more to the center of the drive, which results in less sectors passing under the heads every seconds. This can easily cut throughput in half. Unlike an SSD. The SSD will keep reads up to speed, and writes will only suffer once garbage collection is forced to operate in real time. Which is in itself unlikely, because a SSD will process writes so fast it usually has plenty of time to manage cells between writes, whereas the HDD is still busy putting the data to disk. Waiting for the right sectors to pass under the heads, moving those heads, ect.

Quote

Old trait? HDD still has the best write durability.

You keep saying this. Prove it. Show hard data that supports your claim. This too is outdated information.

In the time a HDD does one write, an SSD can do hundreds. Even time for time, an SSD will typically outlast a HDD, let alone if you actually use a HDD for long enough to equal the write count from the SSD. Which would be decades.

Quote

Little risk.

Funny. Using the SSD for these writes is so little risk it can't even be measured.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 08:27:15 AM by Rundvleeskroket »

Offline Rundvleeskroket

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Re: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders and files
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2018, 05:27:54 AM »
Avast doesnt make a lot of temp trash but it you have many apps like adobe products you need to divert the temp dir.

Since this discussion started about the temp data Avast produces, this is pure backpedaling. 'Gigabytes of daily writes (your own words) is apparently now even to you 'not a lot of temp trash' (again, your own words). You just acknowledged your arguments are invalid and moot.

I'm glad we finally got that cleared up.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 05:41:23 AM by Rundvleeskroket »

Offline Evanna456

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Re: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders and files
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2018, 10:31:17 AM »
Avast is not the only one making temp trash here and I dont get u.
Depends on how many apps that you have, you might be getting more than 100mb temp trash.

HDD rpm speed do slow down to avoid damage or moves the head away.

2016 marks the end of bad SSD drives right?

if 2016 SSD drives can still survive for 5 years. 2019, I will have my answer and until then i will be spouting the same answers.

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Offline Rundvleeskroket

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Re: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders and files
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2018, 11:48:32 AM »
Show me a HDD that reduces rpm to avoid head crash damage when a shock is detected. Instead of, for instance, moving the heads away. That was your claim.

Moving the heads away takes a fraction of a second. The shock of a dropped laptop or a bump against a desktop machine also takes a fraction of a second. Slowing down the platters in a HDD takes several seconds. Useless to react to such short events.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 11:52:21 AM by Rundvleeskroket »

Offline Evanna456

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Re: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders and files
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2018, 11:49:01 PM »
it slows down momentarily and the system will be unresponsive at that time until the platter stabilize spinning to its operational speed 5400/7200 and the header goes back to its normal position. Its to prevent motor damage, ive read that on paper before and its an assistive technology in combination to the header. Slowing down is the kick off to the HDD protection.

Strangely I cant seem to find a good resource of it on the net. It seems they already included it already on the the header protection scheme(?)

Call it a bogus one but i definitely read something like that.

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Offline bob3160

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Re: Avast Free Antivirus: temporary folders and files
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2018, 12:28:33 AM »
it slows down momentarily and the system will be unresponsive at that time until the platter stabilize spinning to its operational speed 5400/7200 and the header goes back to its normal position. Its to prevent motor damage, ive read that on paper before and its an assistive technology in combination to the header. Slowing down is the kick off to the HDD protection.

Strangely I cant seem to find a good resource of it on the net. It seems they already included it already on the the header protection scheme(?)

Call it a bogus one but i definitely read something like that.
The question ids how long ago. Things have changed. :)
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